North American #77

[colt thompson]

#77 is in the December Rock Island Auction as well as a Singer

[gbethu]

While there is no such thing an a bad original Singer or NAA 1911, these two have been worked hard it appears.


It will be interesting to watch the trade off on the price realized between rarity and condition...

[gfguns]

I have only seen a couple NAA Pistols and they all looked rough. Any idea how many are known? Any pictures of a high condition original NAA out there? I looked but can't make out the serial number on the Singer, anyone here know it?

[gbethu]

The Singer appears to be S800115. It's not on any list of previously observed Singers by people like Chuck Clawson or Kevin Williams. Not to say they haven't evaluated it at some time but I don't have a copy.
The NAAs are almost all in poor finish condition. I believe only a hundred or so were produced but the contract was cancelled due to war's end. I worked long and hard to find two decent examples, one through Amoskeag Auctions and the other through a great gun dealer in Houston, Collector's Firearms. They imported the gun from a Canadian collector. Both dealers really know their guns and did a detailed authentication of the pieces.
The Singer I would suggest you go look at yourself or contract a trusted advisor familiar with Singers....Mistakes are expensive to rectify. Thinking about making the pilgrimage to RIAC for the first time myself. Good luck. gordon

[Rob Greer]

I know of 27 North American Arms M1911 prototype pistols. (Not all of these 27 pistols are original... they were simply observed.) These include serial numbers listed in the books, and observed examples from any other source I could find (auctions, forums, etc).

They made 100 pistols serial numbered 1 to 100, plus a very small quantity (assumed to be about 5) of additional pistols with repeating serial numbers (111, 555 etc.) Most NAA pistols are in very poor condition, but there are some out there that retain a good percentage of their original finish. It is believed these pistols were toolroom prototypes. Others will say that they were all assembled (well) after the contract was cancelled and sold on the commercial market. Regardless, they are an incredibly rare and interesting part of the history of the M1911.

The Singer is in fair condition - if original. It is definitely in any bidder's best interest to personally inspect the pistol - or have a trusted person inspect it for them. It simply is too expensive a pistol to gamble on.

[gfguns]

Thanks Rob and Gordon I appreciate the information. I will not be bidding on either, just trying to educate myself.
Greg

[Tommy2guns]

If there were only an honest expert out there to help us.....

[Scott Gahimer]

There are high quality images of NAA 77 in the Gallery of my site, www.m1911info.com for those who are subscribers at my site. There's a slide show with the same images (only smaller) on the home page for visitors of the site. The pistol is an original finish NAA that has original parts, including the barrel. All the serial numbers match and are original NAA-applied markings. The first time I recall seeing the pistol is when it was sold several years ago by a well-known collectibles dealer and importer/exporter. I later had the opportunity to inspect and photograph the pistol when it sold a few years ago.

[Tommy2guns]

There is also a Springfield Armory NRA pistol in the same auction that supposedly came out of Chuck Clawson's collection. Serial 127904.

[Scott Gahimer]

Yes, that's right. And the provenance on that pistol goes back even further than that. When Chuck acquired that pistol, he then decided to sell another N.R.A. SA M1911 he had and retain the gun in the upcoming auction. The S.A. he sold is the one Jackthedog sold a few years ago online for $11,025. Chuck elected to keep 127904 in his collection and didn't sell it until years later. I think he probably liked 127904 better because of all the provenance it had to Col. Rice. He had done the research on Rice for the previous owner...a fellow from Savannah, GA with the first name Tom. Savannah and Tom... Hmm? That sounds familiar.

Anyway, after doing the research, he and Tom later made a trade which enabled Chuck to acquire 127904. Here are a few of the documents with that pistol. I don't know if the auction plans to show them, but they probably should. They represent the whole timeline of provenance with the pistol. The photos I show here have the addresses, phone numbers, e-mail address, etc.(people's personal information) edited out, but all that is on the original documents. There are also a lot of detailed photos of this SA pistol and all the related documentation in the Gallery on my web site.

The Clawson letter when he sold 127904
http://i62.tinypic.com/mbipok.jpg
The letter from Tom in Savannah to Chuck from 1998
http://i61.tinypic.com/u7uhl.jpg
The documentation Tom in Savannah got from the gun shop when he acquired the pistol in 1997
http://i62.tinypic.com/11tq62s.jpg
A summary of the research Chuck did on the pistol, perhaps for Tom. See the bottom of previous letter. It mentions all the research being provided by Chuck. This page was provided with the pistol when Chuck sold it, as well as all the supporting documentation he used to write the summary.
http://i58.tinypic.com/2wqacuc.jpg

The provenance on this pistol is about as good as it gets, IMO.

[Tommy2guns]

Wow, Tom is a busy busy guy it could appear. Lots of guys named Tom in Savannah. I actually was under the impression that you owned both of these pistols Scott. If so the irony would be the provenance including a letter from Tom that strengthens the value for the seller. So if this is the Tom you think it is, he already knew of the history and still pointed the gun out.

Completely illogical....

The more ironic side of this is both of these guns are at Rock Island, an auction that so many advanced collectors have done the bash and trash on citing how dishonest Rock Island appears to be to them. If that is true then somebody is a total hypocrite.

[Scott Gahimer]

I posted about pistols asked about. I never said I owned NAA 77. Did you post to talk about pistols? Or are you simply posting in this thread to try to trash someone again? If you don't have personal knowledge of the pistols or their provenance, what's the point of posting. And who are you to judge any person for what venue they elect to use when selling something?

[Tommy2guns]

Scott, I wasn't starting anything about you or anyone else. I decided, and not because of your threat of legal action and exposing me on this forum that there is any point in arguing with you. That comment was made by you at a time of high emotion and I let it pass and ignored it as I understand that anger gets the best of us sometimes.

I do think you bring value to this page as long as it doesn't get personal and dicey. I made an apology to the moderators and others on this site for my bringing up the past or getting the mudslinging going.

I'm not going down that road Scott, and as a gentleman I hope you can see to do the same. It is of no value and it certainly does not reflect in the true age of any of us here. We can certainly agree to disagree about any subject you wish but I choose to do it as maturely and graciously as I can muster.

There are plenty of other outsiders in the gun collecting field that have nothing but schemes, scams and plans to bring problems to all of our doors. I choose to fight with them not the home team.

[Scott Gahimer]

Scott, I wasn't starting anything about you or anyone else. I decided, and not because of your threat of legal action and exposing me on this forum that there is any point in arguing with you. That comment was made by you at a time of high emotion and I let it pass and ignored it as I understand that anger gets the best of us sometimes.

I have no idea what you are even talking about. When I look at this thread and what you've posted, I see nothing of any value whatsoever. You do absolutely nothing on this forum but try to stir the pot and smear others. When you make up and post false stories about me, and call me a liar and thief, that's libel. I didn't threaten you. I simply told you the process is already started to identify you and let you face up for the libel. Anyone who is such a coward as to hide behind a screen name and hurl lies to smear others without furnishing a single speck of evidence is the scum of the earth as far as I am concerned. I didn't say anything in anger. I simply told you what's coming for you.

I do think you bring value to this page as long as it doesn't get personal and dicey. I made an apology to the moderators and others on this site for my bringing up the past or getting the mudslinging going.

I know I bring value to this page and I also know you do not. Don't talk to me about "personal and dicey", you rotten, lying POS. And don't expect an apology from me. Your "apology" was not sincere because you continue to do nothing here but try to stir up trouble. You offer NOTHING of value to the conversation here. You just posted accusations without any proof about the seller of the 1937 Navy, and now that fellow has responded. I don't know him, and have no idea what the truth is about that auction. It's not my business to butt in and smear people. I try to talk pistols here, but all you want to do is stir trouble, spew out lies and call others hypocrite, liar, thief, etc. You are pathetic.

I'm not going down that road Scott, and as a gentleman I hope you can see to do the same. It is of no value and it certainly does not reflect in the true age of any of us here. We can certainly agree to disagree about any subject you wish but I choose to do it as maturely and graciously as I can muster.

You started out on that road when you first came to this forum with your fancy screen name, and you continue to go down the same road. Don't speak to me about grace and maturity. With your past, you continue trying to sling mud at me by posting about pistols you think are mine or related to me. It must be a sad, miserable life to have to hide behind screen names and tell your lies. Anyone who is such a coward gets absolutely no respect from anyone who is anyone. I post credible information about pistols under my real name. When you post trash on this, or any board, you only show how worthless you are. And pointing out how worthless you are, when others will not, is something I am not afraid to do.


There are plenty of other outsiders in the gun collecting field that have nothing but schemes, scams and plans to bring problems to all of our doors. I choose to fight with them not the home team.

Once again, you've shown your true self. You are a petty, jealous coward and a worthless POS, as far as your credibility goes. You must really be afraid of me to hide behind a screen name and spew lies. And anyone who tells such lies should be afraid. The truth about you will be exposed when you appear in court and face the truth.

Anyone who doesn't like this kind of crap on this board should speak up and tell this spineless coward to take a hike. Otherwise, I'll continue to call him out every time he starts this crap with me. I use my real name and I stand up for myself and the truth, whether anyone else does or not. Everyone likes to stay out of it when it's someone else being lied about, but I doubt they'd be so receptive if they were the ones being smeared with lies. It says a lot about people's character when they stand by along the sidelines and watch others being smeared. It's not important to me to be liked, or be popular. It is important to me to tell the truth and stand up for it.

I just came back from a nice 10 day trip to find thiis coward's post on the board. Nothing is changed. :) I replied (in blue) within the quote above.

[Tommy2guns]

Scott,

A couple of things. First you seem to have a very sensitive set of emotions that everything I remark on here apparently gets you upset. I'm not attacking you Scott and I am not trying to do you any harm. If I wanted to do you harm, you would know it.

Second I have made some critical comments about several things I have seen on this forum and others I found online and elsewhere such as crooks and liars. This is directed at things like fakers, dishonest auction participants, and when I see something that other collectors should be weary of. I may not be as technical as you are in regards to 1911s Scott but I am basically doing the same thing many others here do when talking about these things. Scott I can go thru your posts and find countless examples where you have done the same.

Next, this forum was not created by you or I and neither of us has the "Right" to tell the other to go away and never come back. This is a privilege we have being on this forum, it is not a "Right". If you want to control or censor other people on a forum about guns then maybe you should go start your own. Then you can be ruler of your imaginary world.

Finally, should you really remark about other people standing on the sidelines and not come to your aid? Scott have you given any thought to the idea that all these people are not coming to your defense because they know what I said about you previously was true? I want you to take a guess at how many people here have contacted me and told me that I was right on track about you. And they didn't use the term "right on track" either.
Most used a lot if profanity in talking about you in the negative. Three outright called you a bully in the school yard. Several call you liar, scumbag, jackaxx... And so on... Maybe they are glad to see someone giving you your own medicine.....
Did you ever hear the comment about someone's ears burning because they were being talked about? I can totally say that is just not true. If it were then your head would be on fire.

And Scott I have had a couple conversations in person with a guy that has written books about 1911s in person at his home. You really don't know what others think of you. If you did you might change your personality.


Signed,

Fancy screen name.....

[Scott Gahimer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. More of the same from the spineless coward who makes unfounded accusations. Whether you make up or just repeat the lies you spew, it's all the same when you don't identify yourself or furnish names and specifics with your accusations. And there is no such thing as a "bully in the school yard" when dealing with scum like you. I have no sensitive emotions about you. I simply detest cowards and liars in general.

The reality is one can lock out a thief, but not a liar. But our laws and court systems deal out justice to those who defame others with lies. What are afraid of? Stand up like a man, present your evidence and make your case. But a low-life liar can't do that because there is no evidence of anything that didn't happen. I'm not the type of person who takes the law into his own hands. I am the type of person, however, who will bring your no good, lying arse to the courts for justice.

The nice thing about what I do with inspections is that there's all types of documentation accompanying each pistol I inspect. There are shipping documents, dealer transfer records, form 4473s, photographs, e-mails, phone records, etc. We have all the records for every person we've dealt with and pistol inspected. You have nothing but unsupported lies. But you'll get your chance to furnish proof...sooner than you realize. Along with two agencies already working on the evidence that will positively identify you as the poster of the "3-digit fantasy inspection" and your post calling me a "liar and thief", I have offered a $10K cash reward to anyone providing credible evidence positively identifies you and enables us to bring suit against you for the libel. So be sure of one thing. It's only a matter of time. And like I said before, I hope you have something I want, because when the court is done with you, I'll have it.

And let's get one thing straight. I don't expect members on this board to come to my defense. I only expect them to stand up for themselves and not tolerate a troll on the board who is only here to stir trouble and defame others. I've had more than 1000 subscribers at my site over the last 4+ years and regularly maintain a subscriber base of ca. 500. I've dealt with many of them extensively. I have hundreds of customers who have stated they'd happily post positive reviews for the services I've provided them. I don't have problems with people I deal with. I only have problems with the petty, jealous liars I don't/won't deal with, or have identified one or more of the guns they had as refinished, mismatched, incorrect, etc.

So be sure to get all the hard evidence from these people you claim to have talked to. Be sure they'll be willing to appear and testify to support their claims, because anyone who spews the kinds of lies you have will get their opportunity to speak up in court, too.

[Tommy2guns]

Scott, I will be sitting right here waiting for this big retaliation to happen. Right here.

You need help Scott, you really do.

[Scott Gahimer]

We'll see who needs help.
http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?49897-10-000-CASH-REWARD-for-the-actual-identity-of-username-Tommy2guns