Fat (.310 - .311) Bullets in the 1917

[Ken in Iowa]

I was surprised to read the other day that the 1917 has a .300 bore diameter with a .005 nominal groove depth. This equates to a .310 groove diameter.

My Remington with the original 9-18 dated barrel is not a tackdriver with .308 bullets. M2 ball is quite disappointing and GI Match ammo is OK shooting about 1.5" groups at 50 yards.

The throat is rather short as some lots of GI Match are firmly engaging the lands. The bore is decent but on the dark/frosted side even after a couple sessions with an electronic bore cleaner.

Yesterday, I fired some handloads using classic 30/06 recipes to see if I could improve. This included 50-52 gr H4350 with Hornady 190 gr BTHP match bullets and 46-48 gr of IMR 4064 with GI 173 gr BTFMJ match bullets. Cases were once fired GI Match with CCI #200 primers.

Accuracy was about the same as with GI Match, about 1.5" or a bit better. I believe that I bracketed the optimal powder charges with these test loads.

This leaves me with a 3 MOA rifle shooting the best available bullets. Grrr.

I have read that some folks have found better accuracy shooting .310 or .311 bullets. I have some Sierra 150 and 180 gr .311 SP and Hornady .3105 174 gr BTFMJ on hand.

Has anyone given these a try?

[RC20]

There has been quite some discussion through various threads on the subject. I ran a search and got more expanded info.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?139675-Model-1917-bore-condition

Also keep in mind, good stock seat and the stock pressure on the barrel is important (or can be). I finally got more consistent result by putting a bit of up pressure on the barrel (along with the right setback)

The best response has been a poster by the name of Bob S (CMP and some other forums) like the link above.

His take is that its not only a shootable combo, its more accurate in the guns that have the original 5 grove left twist barells (WWII replacement barrels were made to 1903 specs)

Where there may be some question as to why the US did not reduce the .0050 dimension to a more nominal value that suited the 308 diameter bullets better,.

The difficulty is that the Brits designed the 5 grove deep barrel to deal with their erosion issues in 303. Using that basis, they should have been shooting .314 bullets for best accuracy. Neither the US or Brits were stupid, amazing good in fact, so they had to be aware of the aspects of that (the Pattern 13 being a move to get more accuracy and range for the Brits from the SMLE

However there is also the erosion aspect and the deep grove, narrow grove and wide land if I have that right was designed to extend barrel life. Our powders are different now as well.

For casual shooters I don't think it makes any difference and casual shooters using lower load levels probably none. What would happen with a steady diet of 311 155 gr at 2900 FPS I don't know and for us it does not matter.

I am currently shooting the .308 175gr SBT in mine and plan on trying the 311 174 Sierras in the guns that don't shoot those well.

My loads are a bit below your range in 4350, but I have gotten good results by using a 3.270 COAL,

My brother gets credit for an explanation in that the 1917 uses an abrupt rifling system, mine typically engage at .3305, where as the 1903s are tapers and I get engagement at 3.340.

The 1917 seems to like a bit of distance off the engagement, so that’s what I do. If my eyes were consistent I think I could shoot 1.5 inch at 100. I can get equivalent MOA at 50, but sight picture is harder for me at 100, I shoot a lot at 75 to challenge that and see if I can move it on out.

[Ken in Iowa]

Thanks for the link and your response. After reading that old thread, I wish that I had some HXP to try. I have tried several lots of LC and TW M2 ball dated from 54 to 72 with basically the same result. Sierra 150 gr handloads that shoot great in my Garand aren't happy in the 1917 either.

I believe that I'll reduce the powder charge a grain or two and try those .3105 bullets. I don't see where it will hurt. That's why they created a bullet puller, right?

If that doesn't pan out, I'll revisit seating depth and bedding.

[Tuna]

Try loading to 2700 fps for your 1917 with 150 gr. bullets. Do not try to push it as the original 150 gr. load was the 2700 fps mark. Make sure also you are shooting a flat base bullet. The 1917 in general does not like the boat tail bullets in the 150 gr. range. It seems that a load of IMR 3031 at 2700 fps works well as this powder is close to the originals. This is what I have found in my Eddystone and my Remington 1917 rifles.

[RC20]

Thanks for the link and your response. After reading that old thread, I wish that I had some HXP to try. I have tried several lots of LC and TW M2 ball dated from 54 to 72 with basically the same result. Sierra 150 gr handloads that shoot great in my Garand aren't happy in the 1917 either.

I believe that I'll reduce the powder charge a grain or two and try those .3105 bullets. I don't see where it will hurt. That's why they created a bullet puller, right?

If that doesn't pan out, I'll revisit seating depth and bedding.

You are welcome. Definitely interesing in any reports on gthe 311 class bullets and what powder charge.

I am leery of any steady diet of HXP. Its hot stuff and the bullets are steel (copper clad or gilded) . I have not seen anyone authoratatvie do a report on HXP and wear.

I have some HXP, use it for sight in and sometimes an initial shot to heat up barrel but nothing else.

My loads currently are using the 175 gr Sierra and the slower speeds seem to work fine with that one.

Keeping in mind that the original 30-06 (30-03) was a 220 gr round nose at very slow speeds, then they went to the 150s Spitzer. The 1-10 handles and amazing breadth of bullets at a lot of different speeds.

My 4350 loading is 49 gr and the Remington does very well with that, the other guns not quite as good but the 311s may help there to.

COAL was far more important than any given speed. the 49 was what I was using when I hit on the 3.270 and have stuck with it.

I think various other powders in that speed range would work keeping in mind the case load needs and some of them may need a magnum primer.

[Ken in Iowa]

I just got back from the range. PERFECT day here in Iowa...

I tried the Hornady 174 gr .3105" FMJBT bullets with 4064. The fat bullet forces you to seat the bullet about .050" deeper than the USGI 173 match bullet. I ended up about .020" off the lands. My loads from the other day were just touching or engaged about .010"

With 45.0, 46.0 and 46.5 gr of 4064 groups were significantly tighter. Best was 1.00" and worst 1.23" Point of impact was extremely close across the range of powder, so I would pick 46.0 and start playing with seating depth next. Normal pressure signs were noted.

I might be inclined to try the 174 gr Sierra .311 since I have a small supply. I see that Grafs actually has some in stock too.

[RC20]

What yardage? Good groups and nice constancy. I don't care the size so much when working up a setting, its if its consistent and a good pattern.

Natchez has the Sierra 174s in 100s and 500 counts. I have a couple of the 100s headed this way.

[older than dirt]

I went online & checked some ammo sites for the .310-.311 bullets & they are listed as British .303`s. Is this correct?

[Ken in Iowa]

What yardage? Good groups and nice constancy. I don't care the size so much when working up a setting, its if its consistent and a good pattern.

Natchez has the Sierra 174s in 100s and 500 counts. I have a couple of the 100s headed this way.

So far everything has been done at 50 yards. *Cases used are FA57 match. *Powder used are newer -Canadian IMR4064- Australian H4350 *The Hornady .3105 174 gr actually mics at .310"

We are both getting to the point - with the Sierra 174 .311s - where the case/chamber necks are getting snug. My fired FA57 match cases will not accept the .311 bullet, but they do accept the Hornady .3105 bullet. This is safe and actually good for accurate bullet alignment, but we are getting close to 'too tight'

Further the short leade to the lands is forcing the bullet seating depth deep enough where the bearing surface of the bullet is right down to the base of the case neck at least in my rifle. This is another area of concern due to brass flow of fired cases and resizing.

I found a small batch of 10 Winchester commercial cases that mic .002" smaller in the neck. I will use these if and when I use the Sierra .311s.

Please use care with those .311s my friend. We are nearing the ragged edge.

[Ken in Iowa]

I went online & checked some ammo sites for the .310-.311 bullets & they are listed as British .303`s. Is this correct?

Yes, these fat .310-.311 bullets are normally used for 303 British, 7.7 Jap and Russian 7.62 rifles.

We are trying to find the best accuracy with the Model 1917 which has deeper grooves (.005") than the typical US 30/06 barrel (.004") These are the nominal specs of the rifles.

[RC20]

Something to keep in mind is the necks get stiff and at some point either need to be annealed or replaced.

I am playing with annealing but its a tricky issue with temperature control.

Better to under heat than over, once too much the case won't return.

Internet wisdom is heat to color change to low red, really that's too hot, color change short of orange or red and that's a tough line to walk.

so far better than not but still working on it, got my fist ones a bit too hot (the color change should polish off) but not by a lot. No more neck cracks and better seating (it was getting very hard)

Lot of opinions but its both a temperature and a time (if you can heat at the lower temp long enough it does the same as higher temp shorter>

[Ken in Iowa]

Good point on annealing the necks. With .311" bullets and standard 30/06 dies, we are overworking the necks a bit.

The same holds true with the 7.62x54r Russian cartridge. Many sizing dies are setup for .308" bullets. If using fatter .310" or .311" bullets, there is an option to use a larger expander ball.

My old Lyman 7.62x54r FL die is setup for .308" bullets. Instead of going the expander ball route, I purchased a Lyman "M" die for 31 caliber which was designed for 303 British. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/199295/lyman-neck-expander-m-die-31-caliber-long?cm_vc=ProductFinding

I have been using this tool to expand the 30/06 brass that I have been using with the fat bullets. It works perfectly for this chore.

It looks to be another fine day in Iowa. I have the COAL test loads ready to go. I hope to get to the range this afternoon. :D

[RC20]

Good shooting, I am odd sift weekend and try to shoot today, errands and cloudy and cooler, maybe tomorrow (mine have not arrive yet)

I will see how my ordered 303s do, they will go in the slightly softer necks so may work fine.

I am using the older cases for the 1917 as it does not seem to care so much, have not had enough cycles in the newer cases ones to need to anneal.

I got a lot of 600 once fired RPs for 18 cents a case, adding a bunch of once fire RP range brass. Plan on getting the all prepped this winter (my brother has a Gerard trimmer setup for 30-06, so I don't hbave to hand trim with the Little Crow, we just do the whole lot in one easy go) and then shoot the whole summer (we shoot winter but neat nearly as much.)

I tend to shoot 50 or 75 yds as well. I think that result with irons sights is great, probably a 3/4 100 yd group if shooting a scope.

Plan on the fist group I shoot through the less capable Eddystone vs the Remington that shoots the 308s well (limitation being my eyes.

Will try on my Danish return, it’s a bit more worn, cool history going to Canada, to Denmark and then back to US (its got all the elements Ferris discusses in his 1917 book, neat to have one that fits it to a T like that)

[Ken in Iowa]

OK, we had a beautiful time at the range today. My test rounds were as follows;

FA57 GI Match cases- twice fired. CCI #200 primers. 46 gr IMR 4064. Hornady 174 gr .3105" (Actual .310") FMJBT

Test #1 .005" off the lands
Test #2 .025"
Test #3 .035"

I had goofed up on the seating die adjustment and did not load a batch at .015"

Test #1 was a bit odd. Group size was 1.8" with 2 shots in the same hole low and right from the other three. The two low shots were in the 10 ring.
Test #2 was nice. 4 of 5 shots grouped at .7" with 3 of them in the 10 ring. There was one high flyer that opened it up to 1.6".
Test #3 was all over the place. Group size was 3.4" in a vertical string.

I regret not having loaded .015" I suspect the optimal seating depth will be close to that number.

I know what the next test batch will be. :)

[RC20]

I may try a bit shorter on the next loadings. My 311s came in so have something to work with.
I am shooting 4350 exclusively so there may be powder preference in the spacing as well.

I think mine were .030 off the lands and I think closer was not doing so good, but that was also 308 diameter.

Never sure if the flyers are my eyes or something else!

Hope to get down next week. I had 1903 stuff loaded up, beautiful day let alone for Anchorage in October and the range was closed (Alaska day, aka former Seward day) drats, Not too many nice days left before snow flies and all too crisp!

[RC20]

I got 30 loaded up with 4350.

My Eddystone is not nearly as accurate as my Remington, it did ok with them, maybe a wash.

My Winchester Danish return which is the least accurate with 308s, did a lot better.

I got 4 inside of 1 3/8 at 75 yds (with a flyer which I have to measure)

I did not have a good sight picture as the sun was low and behind, not awful but not good with old eyes and the iron sights.

I think its worth experimenting with these, the Hornady being a shade small maybe better for it than the Sierra but maybe a wash as well.

they do come out pretty short to not stick in the lands. 3.200, I can't use (though may try) my depth gauge as the bullet is too large to fit the test shell.

[RC20]

I went online & checked some ammo sites for the .310-.311 bullets & they are listed as British .303`s. Is this correct?

A warning! There are WWII era barrels that were made by HS, JA and RIA that used the 1903 30-06 contour (i.e. 2 or 4 grove barrels with .004 groves) and those SHOULD NOT be shot with a 303 caliber (310 or 311 or any other diameters used for 303) as they would be a serious squeeze. Not sure what issues but no gain and possible barrel damage.

I have found my Sierra 174s have a COAL to the rifling of 3.210 to 3.220. Probably the longest COAL for a reloaded cartridge would be 3.200, I am going to try a bit shorter to the 3.190 range based on my finding for my best shooting rifle with the 308s that it liked .035 or so off the lands.

Again I am not saying it’s the only dimension but its worked well and not sure I can shoot well enough (see target) to refine.

Part of the problem is I am trying to shoot at 75 yds as that is what I am doing with the scoped 1903s I am shooting and 50 would give me a more accurate sight picture for the 1917 Iron sights with my eyes.

[Pentz]

I could not resist posting for us cast bullet shooters. My Enfields plop .3105 200-gr 311299s into great groups. In August fired a 10-round 300-yd group into a certified 3.573 group with my older 1917. Yesterday my pristine, original 1919 Winchester 5-groove with just 400 rounds through it so far managed a 100-yd 10-rounder at 1.360". Three-round groups are for play, 10-rounders for real ;-) Try cast, 100 rounds at a session with no flinch or bruising!

[RC20]

Great going. I cast bullets years back, all the mix and issues with getting lead etc pretty well did me off them.

On the other hand I can't see a target worth a hoot at 300 so that leaves me out (unless I put the SK mount on!)

I often shoot 60+ full loads with the FMJs so don't think 100 would botheer me much. for some reason the 1917 shoots good for me, my brother thinks it kicks, go figure.

[Ken in Iowa]

Great shooting Pentz!

I am dabbling with cast in a Krag and a Finnish Mosin.

What is the nose diameter of your 311299s?

[Pentz]

The nose is .3095 ahead of the front band tapering to .300. I'm seating to 3.272 COL. The leader such as it is engraved lightly upon closing of the bolt but usually allows withdrawal. This is in a brand N.O.S. barrel so ymmv.

[RC20]

ymmv or not, that is some great shooting.

I am lucky to get 1 inch at 75 yds. Eyes just are not there for it.

On my best day even with the 1903 sporter and a scope I am lucky to get 5/8 x 5 shot at 100 (our range goes no further) . 10 shots would probably go 1 or 1 1/4.

Lucky for 2 inches in that case at 200

[Phil McGrath]

I could not resist posting for us cast bullet shooters. My Enfields plop .3105 200-gr 311299s into great groups. In August fired a 10-round 300-yd group into a certified 3.573 group with my older 1917. Yesterday my pristine, original 1919 Winchester 5-groove with just 400 rounds through it so far managed a 100-yd 10-rounder at 1.360". Three-round groups are for play, 10-rounders for real ;-) Try cast, 100 rounds at a session with no flinch or bruising!

Is that a Remington 03a3 ?

[bruce]

OK, we had a beautiful time at the range today. My test rounds were as follows;

FA57 GI Match cases- twice fired. CCI #200 primers. 46 gr IMR 4064. Hornady 174 gr .3105" (Actual .310") FMJBT

Test #1 .005" off the lands
Test #2 .025"
Test #3 .035"

I had goofed up on the seating die adjustment and did not load a batch at .015"

Test #1 was a bit odd. Group size was 1.8" with 2 shots in the same hole low and right from the other three. The two low shots were in the 10 ring.
Test #2 was nice. 4 of 5 shots grouped at .7" with 3 of them in the 10 ring. There was one high flyer that opened it up to 1.6".
Test #3 was all over the place. Group size was 3.4" in a vertical string.

I regret not having loaded .015" I suspect the optimal seating depth will be close to that number.

I know what the next test batch will be. :)

With extreme respect, I've shot a few rifles over the years. Regardless of irons or scope used, the results you list above would give cause to take a look at bedding of the rifle. Have had some experience with the M-1917. Light weight bullets did not produce such nice results as I wanted. Often found that a flat based 180 gr. spitzer or roundnosed bullet gave very excellent results. Distinctly remember one Winchester M-1917 that was so so with most loads tried. Attention to the bedding and a bit of upward pressure under the barrel at the fore end of the stock eliminated issues such as you experienced in test 1,2,3... resulting in consistently round groups. Use of a Hornady 180 gr. RN bullet resulted in consistent sub- 1.5 inch groups for five strings of five shots at 100 yds. firing from a solid sandbag rest. HTH. Sincerely. bruce.

[steved66]

I missed this thread the first time around. Now that it's popped up again I figure I'd add my two cents since I have some experience shooting "fat" bullets in an M1917. My Eddystone with original 7-18 barrel has a bore that is pitted the entire length, which BTW was not in the description on GB. The first time I shot it I used Greek HXP surplus Ball ammo. I literally couldn't hit the 2ft x 3ft target frame at 50yds. Dejected, I got some advice on another forum about using low velocity, oversized cast lead reloads. I found that a .310 or .311 gas checked lead bullet propelled by Alliant 2400 did the trick but it requires the use of a polymer bead filler to keep the gas from cutting past the bullet. The result was a reasonable "plinking" group at 50yds. Along the way I read an entry on the Box-o-Truth website about using a .311 spitzer bullet to coax a respectable group from a pitted M1917 barrel. I was hesitant to try at first, worried about the possibility of high pressure building up behind the oversize copper jacketed bullet. In the end I decided to give it a try after reading about how strong people consider the M1917 action to be (and seeing that the rifle used in the Box-o-Truth article didn't blow up). I made up 20 rounds using neck-sized brass, 180gr Sierra .311 spitzers (303 British marked on the box) and 43gr IMR4895. The result was much better than I expect. At 50yds from the bench with the open sights of the military rifle (not a sporter) I placed 4 shots touching each other with one flier just outside of the group. Below is a picture of the target. Now I can bring my original piece of WWI history to the range and shoot it with confidence at 50yds and ring the gong at 100. Good enough for me.

32626

[p246]

Late to thread but I'll add my experience. I'm shooting an 11-18 Eddystone with nos barrel, Canadian lend lease in very good shape. It would not shoot HXP or HPBT SMKs very well when I got it. I'll skip trial and error and go to my winning recipe. .310 Speer FB SPs. HXP brass/trimmed and annealed, primer pockets swaged and pocket based trued. Federal 210 primer. 47 grains varget (2700 to 2725 range on chrono). .2 off rifling. Consistent 2 inch groups at 100 off bag. When the stars aligned a few times I squeezed out a few 5 shot groups approaching 1.5 inches. with the battle peep I use a 6 o'clock hold.

I shoot this rifle in local shoots in WW1 class. I won the match last time out. Only 3 rifles beat me that were shooting open class (bolt military rifles made between 1919 and 1950). 2 03A3's and 1 swiss rifle (The swiss rifle and shooter kicks everyone butt pretty consistently). So far this is the only rifle I own that shoots a SP bullet better than a FMJ. But there are not a lot of options for 150 grain .310 bullets. I should add that this load will not time to ladder sight, as it seems to shoot 6 inches low at 300 and gets worse from there. Our matches are all at 200 so once I got the battle peep on I didn't' really care. Figuring out a sweet spot load for my rifles is as much fun for me as shooting them....most of the time.