30/06 reduced hunting load

[Matt Anthony]

Been working up a load for my son in law, he's a bit recoil sensitive. His rifle is a Winchester 1971 M70 in 30/06, 24 inch barrel. No recoil pad, just a metal butt plate so it can be brutal trying to shoot groups! Two weeks ago he finally bought a PACT Magnum plus recoil pad which made all the difference in the world. We have been able to increase the pressure and fps so I am can be confident he will have a clean kill.
The load is 30 grains of IMR4198 under a 180 gr. Hornady round nose bullet seated to the bullet cannalure, no crimp. With his barrel the fps on Quick load showed 2065 fps. More than adequate for a clean kill under 100 yards. He will be hunting in the area of Green Bay in Wisconsin.
Anyway, these past few months I have had so much fun developing this load, shooting many powders and combinations of bullets. This load has proven perfect week after week, shooting two shot groups at 100 yards with a cold clean barrel, the groups have always been inside a nickle. It's also very pleasant to shoot!
Matt

[SMOKEY]

Just curious, what makes him recoil sensitive? Personally, I have hunted from a child to just last year when my back finally got the best of me and not once have I ever noticed a gun going off during a shot at a deer. I guess I was concentrating on the target that I never felt the gun go off or ever heard it go off. Now granted I only use either the .35 Remington caliber , 12 gauge shotgun or the M1A .308 caliber. I have often wondered why I never heard the gun go off, was I concentrating that hard?

[Tuna]

Why not have a recoil pad installed or at least use a slip on pad if nothing else? And why use 180 gr bullet when a 150 gr would work fine?

[Sunray]

Change the stock altogether. And work up a 165 grain load. I'd rethink the 4198 too. It's not a suggested .30-06 powder. No data on Hodgdon's site for any bullet weight.
And forget QuickLoad. Use a manual.

[Parashooter]

. . . I'd rethink the 4198 too. It's not a suggested .30-06 powder. . . Use a manual.

Really? Maximum load data copied from a guide (http://stevespages.com/pdf/imr_reloading.pdf)published by IMR -

http://i60.tinypic.com/2pr7lt0.jpg
.30-06
REM. CASE; REM. 9 1/2 PR
HORNADY 110 GR. SPIRE PT.
.308" DIA.; 23" BBL.; 3.130" C.O.L.
Powder Max_Gr. Vel C.U.P.
SR 4759 35.0 2820 49700
IMR 4227 32.0 2730 49400
IMR 4198 39.5 2980 49400
IMR 3031 56.0 3365 49300
. . .
.30-06
REM. CASE; REM. 9 1/2 PR
REM. 150 GR. PTD. SPCL
.308" DIA.; 23" BBL.; 3.200" C.O.L.
SR 4759 31.0 2365 49700
IMR 4227 30.0 2310 50000
IMR 4198 38.0 2600 50000
IMR 3031 49.5 2850 49800
. . .
30-06
REM. CASE; REM. 9 1/2 PR
SIERRA 200 GR. MATCH KING HP
.308" DIA.; 23" BBL.; 3.340" C.O.L.
SR 4759 28.5 2000 49800
IMR 4227 28.5 2045 50000
IMR 4198 36.0 2285 48400
IMR 3031 44.5 2450 49700
. . .

[Matt Anthony]

[QUOTE=Parashooter;391083]Really? Maximum load data copied from a guide (http://stevespages.com/pdf/imr_reloading.pdf)published by IMR -

http://i60.tinypic.com/2pr7lt0.jpg
.30-06
REM. CASE; REM. 9 1/2 PR
HORNADY 110 GR. SPIRE PT.
.308" DIA.; 23" BBL.; 3.130" C.O.L.
Powder Max_Gr. Vel C.U.P.
SR 4759 35.0 2820 49700
IMR 4227 32.0 2730 49400
IMR 4198 39.5 2980 49400
IMR 3031 56.0 3365 49300
. . .
Thanks Parashooter: I used the load data from the Speer #14 Reloading Manual and it's a very accurate load. It will be perfect for his first hunt.
On the subject of recoil, there are many out there that are honestly recoil sensitive, more so in fact that one could believe. Most won't man up and admit it, false pride is the culprit I believe! There are thousands of high power rifles sitting in cabinets and safes that have only been shot a coulple of times due to their recoil. An individual goes and buys a high power brute to be the baddest guy on the block and then finds out it's not that fun getting the snot kicked out of you everytime you pull the trigger. However, it doesn't matter to me what a person shoots, doesn't matter if he enjoys the beatings, nor his pride factor! When I shoot, I want it to be fun and in my opinion, I do not wish to have problems with an already damaged shoulder so I will shoot reduced loads myself! I have more fun finding loads that will work both ways, less recoil and pleasant to shoot and a good kill factor!
And to the others, a 180 grain round nose jacketed bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2065, shot at 100 yards or less, the bullet will drop the deer in it's tracks when you do your part! I have killed over 8 deer using a 30/06 Rem. 700 with the Hoch 185 gr. cast bullet, 34.0 gr's of IMR 4198 #2alloy at 2230 fps. Everyone of those deer was shot under 100 yards and only one jumped and ran 20 ft. before it dropped.
Matt

[joem]

I loaded some 150 gr FMJ with 30 gr 4895 for one of my Garands. Super accurate but wouldn't cycle the action.

[Jim in Salt Lake]

I like the CMP Springfield matches and shoot them every chance I get. These are all shot at 200 yards and include rapid fire sitting and prone. Working an 80 year old bolt rifle and trying to stay in position is a lot easier with a low recoil round. A buddy of mine started using the new 125gr Sierra Matchking they make for the .300 Blackout/Whisper over 40gr of Varget. I get 2380fps average and recoil is very soft. I could go lighter but this load cycles my Garand, too. It's all I load for those matches now.

[Matt Anthony]

Change the stock altogether. And work up a 165 grain load. I'd rethink the 4198 too. It's not a suggested .30-06 powder. No data on Hodgdon's site for any bullet weight.
And forget QuickLoad. Use a manual.

Why would I change the stock, it's my son in laws rifle and he likes it. The rifle is a Winchester M 70 X-police sniper rifle that is extremely accurate the way it is! Why the rush to go with a 165 grain? What's wrong with the 180 gr? As Parashooter posted right from the IMR Manual, where did your information come from on the use of IMR4198? FORGET QUICKLOAD! I have a library of reloading books and manuals starting in 1937 to present. I believe I have 99 % of all manuals that have been printed.
Anyway my friend, Quickload is the best software on reloading empirical data. One uses it to check their loads, Quickload is not a reloading manual. It shows data so you can see what is happening during the entire firing event with a given load. I purchased it when it came out and have kept up with the updates. I would not be without it. Your comments make no sense! Perhaps you should think before you post!
Matt

[Tuna]

He is shooting deer not Elk. One doesn't need 180 gr. bullet for such a thin skinned animal like a deer. A good 150gr bullet will go right through a deer with no problem at all and open up properly at reduced velocities.

[Matt Anthony]

He is shooting deer not Elk. One doesn't need 180 gr. bullet for such a thin skinned animal like a deer. A good 150gr bullet will go right through a deer with no problem at all and open up properly at reduced velocities.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/hunting_bullet_guide1.htm

Here is an article by Chuck Hawks, a very informative article on bullet selection. If one would come across an extremely large deer, using a 180 gr. bullet would be to your advantage. Alot of hunters go with 165 gr. bullets as a compromise, and that's OK too. I believe bullet selection is extremely important and due to the reduced youth load, the heavier bullet would probably fit the situation better than the lighter bullet.
Before I do anything, I read about hunts and about triumphs and failures in the field. What conditions there were and why what happened happened! I listen to hunters and believe about 30% of what they say as too many are BS artists! Too many tall tails......It's like the walleye they caught and it was actually 18 inches......By the time they get home it's 24 inches......The next day it was 30 inches at work.....
Anyway, you are correct that a thin skinned animal as a deer requires only a good 150 gr. bullet, but a 180 round nose hitting the same deer in the same place will have much more shock value. Like hitting something with a 4 ounce ball peen hammer, there is damage, but the 6 ounce will do more damage and the 8 ounce more, and the.....................Thanks for the reply!
Matt

[13Echo]

You are planning velocities that are close to the 30-30 and should select bullets on this basis. The 180gr roundnose Hornady is a rather stout projectile designed for higher velocities and is unlikely to expand well if at all at such modest speeds. If a bullet just punches a small hole with a narrow wound channel it will not cause much shock and may not result in much bleeding. Doesn't matter if it weighs 100 or 200 grs. Better selections would be the 150 or 170gr flatnose which are designed for 30-30 velocity. I'm afraid the 180gr will just be a disappointment and is more likely to wound than kill.

My opinion for what it's worth.

Jerry Liles

[Matt Anthony]

He is shooting deer not Elk. One doesn't need 180 gr. bullet for such a thin skinned animal like a deer. A good 150gr bullet will go right through a deer with no problem at all and open up properly at reduced velocities.

One doesn't need a 30 cal. rifle either to kill a deer! A 243 is big enough! However, the 180 gr. bullet will do the same at reduced velocities! Instead of using facts, opinions rule at times, which really has a negative effect on me.
Here, this is better.......I have been shooting reduced loads because I want to and have found that with a 30 cal. bullet of 180 gr. weight, using 30 grains of IMR 4198 is an extremely accurate target load. Pleasant to shoot, easy on the rifle, the shooter and is economical. This is a youth hunting load, but please do not tell anyone as they will think you are crazy!
Matt

[13Echo]

A youth hunting load is an excellent idea and I applaud it my only concern is the choice of bullet. Try the 170 gr Hornady flat nose instead and it should be an excellent combination and a reliable killer of deer .

[Art]

A youth hunting load is an excellent idea and I applaud it my only concern is the choice of bullet. Try the 170 gr Hornady flat nose instead and it should be an excellent combination and a reliable killer of deer .

I think that is an excellent idea. If you're going to load to .30-30 velocities why not use a bullet designed to work at those velocities. Also, for the purposes of this load a flat point or round nose will probably expand better and more reliably than a spritzer type bullet at the lower velocities it's being driven.

[Parashooter]

. . . a spritzer type bullet . . .
Here we go again with the fizzy-drink projectiles! :icon_scratch: (Read the original post and note that he's discussing a round-nose 180.)

[Art]

Here we go again with the fizzy-drink projectiles! :icon_scratch: (Read the original post and note that he's discussing a round-nose 180.)

Gee Parashooter, I'm just agreeing agreeing with a suggestion on a possible refinement. I never thought of a round nose or flat point bullet as a fuzzy drink projectile. I do think that the Hornaday interlock's construction might be a bit stout but can also see how it would work well. Bullets are made to work at certain impact velocities and the bullet and the 170 gr. flatpoint mentioned by 13 echo just seemed like a good choice at the velocities he was operating at. The Sierra 170 Gr. flat point Sierra Pro Hunter would probably be a good choice as well.

[Parashooter]

The "fizzy-drink" business is just a little teasing for typing "spritzer" instead of "spitzer". In case anyone really didn't know, a "spritzer" is a mixture of wine and soda water and a "spitzer" is a pointed bullet. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spritzer and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spitzer_%28bullet%29 for more useless information.:icon_rolleyes:

[Matt Anthony]

I give up! I thought I was dealing with people who really understood reduced loads as I am a cast bullet shooter and have been for 50 years. However, I was wrong!
Matt

[Art]

The "fizzy-drink" business is just a little teasing for typing "spritzer" instead of "spitzer". In case anyone really didn't know, a "spritzer" is a mixture of wine and soda water and a "spitzer" is a pointed bullet. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spritzer and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spitzer_%28bullet%29 for more useless information.:icon_rolleyes:

:icon_lol:, I never could spell, part of the reason I never was an F.B.I. Agent. I could really use an editor sometimes.

[Johnny P]

Lost a good friend several years back, but his favorite hunting rifle and ammo for whitetail deer was his very early Model 70 Winchester in .30-06 with a cast bullet load. He never tried to take a shot at long ranges, and got his deer every year with one well placed shot.

[Matt Anthony]

Lost a good friend several years back, but his favorite hunting rifle and ammo for whitetail deer was his very early Model 70 Winchester in .30-06 with a cast bullet load. He never tried to take a shot at long ranges, and got his deer every year with one well placed shot.

Thanks for posting and the information on short to medium range cast bullet usage. I have been researching the different bullets offered on medium game and it appears Barnes X bullet series starts initial expansion at 1600 fps and full expansion over 1800 fps regardless of caliber or weight. Speer Hot Cor bullets in this range also.
I am awaiting an email back from Hornady and if the bullet I chose will not expand properly at 2055 I will switch to the Barnes triple shock.
I still hunt with cast bullets and have saved hundreds if not thousands of dollars by making my own bullets!
Matt

[13Echo]

If you want a nice, expanding, cast bullet weighing about 180 grs then NOE has a HP version of 311299. I have the mould and it is a nice bullet with a cavity big enough to insure expansion. It might be exactly what you are seeking.

Jerry Liles

[Tuna]

If your looking at the 2000 fps area for expansion then why not look at the 130 to 135 bullet range? These work very well from single shot handguns at the 1600 to 2000+fps.
A lot less recoil and good expansion at those velocities. These should be the key for your son in law and if he can't handle these recoil wise then you had better give him a BB gun and have him hunt mice.

[swede49]

High velocity/mild recoil? Maybe 6.5 Swede Varget 21.7?

[Matt Anthony]

If your looking at the 2000 fps area for expansion then why not look at the 130 to 135 bullet range? These work very well from single shot handguns at the 1600 to 2000+fps.
A lot less recoil and good expansion at those velocities. These should be the key for your son in law and if he can't handle these recoil wise then you had better give him a BB gun and have him hunt mice.

Tuna, I don't want him to use a 130 gr. or a 135, I wanted him to use a 180 gr.! I should back track a bit, before he married my daughter, he never shot a firearm. After they were married he decided he wanted to shoot pills with me on Sunday mornings so we built a Ruger 77/22 stainless laminated stocked 22 LR. I sent it out to Connecticutt Precision and they did the bolt work, new barrel, match chamber and bedded the action using alum. pillars. This rifle will shoot right along side my Custom 40X! So, now he's shooting and wants to go deer hunting. Well, I had a early 70's M70 Winchester that was bought from a suburban police dept. when they rekplaced their sniper rifles with new models. This Win. shoots, without any mods! However, it also does not have a recoil pad nor was he use to shooting a 30/06. After his initial 5 shots, he was not happy with the pounding he was taking, so I offered the lead sled, no he said, he must man up as he is a good sized person.....275 pounds! He did buy a PAST Magnum Recoil Pad which helped with the recoil, but he wanted to try the reduced loads. So, month's of messing around with powders and weights and bulllets, it all happened at 30 gr.s of IMR4198 using either a Speer 180 gr. HotCor round nose or the Hornady 180 gr. round nose. Out of his barrel it crono's out at 2055 fps 10 feet from the muzzle. Where he is hunting, large deer are taken often so after settling on the 180 gr. I thought I had it covered and I believe I do. Last year in the same area, a hunter shot a 260 lb. buck and my heaviest shot was 235 lb. Big bucks can tip the 400 lb. mark if the food source is abundant. So, we will see how it turns out is 3 weeks or so.....
Matt