View Full Version : Odd-Looking US&S?
Texas Red
10-20-2014, 06:54
Does this US&S look "wrong" to anybody else?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=448658598
Good Luck and Good Shooting,
Tommy
Blockislander
10-20-2014, 08:38
Marc at Keystone Arms is a very reputable dealer. The gun looks nice to me.
KeithNyst
10-20-2014, 10:05
At least two things strike me as odd as well: The erosion of the C on the RCD where a take down scratch would have been and the SN font, especially the 1.
Johnny P
10-20-2014, 10:06
If Marc at Keystone Arms is selling this as an original US&S, he needs to have someone examine it that knows Model 1911A1 pistols.
on the Colt .357 mag/pre Python......... guys on other forums are lamenting the fact that someone is making/faking /re-popping good quality older Colt boxes and US GI 1911A1 boxes...... So far no one has noted any fake older S&W boxes yet.......... but I'd get someone like JohnnyP to look hard at either pistol & the one box before I tendered a bid for any of it.........it'd be very hard to get your money back.............
The trigger is incorrect.........should be of the stamped variety and blued. The magazine well looks as if someone has bored it out, it doesn't appear to be "tight" around the magazine............someone has done some work in that area. The barrel bushing looks to be of 1911 era with the pointed sharp feet. Those are just my observations. I'm sure other will either agree or disagree.
Duane Hansen
10-20-2014, 03:44
Looks to me like someone had a US&S slide and created a pistol around it. The frame looks like it started its life as a 1911 piece. The finger relief cuts are wrong and the serial number is completely bogus and newly stamped. What a bargain at only $6500
That gun has more problems than a run over dog. I agree the frame is totally bogus, possibly a Systema that was scrubbed. This is a prime example of why you shouldn't fool with refinished guns other than for shooter grade purposes. I wonder if he's wearing gloves so as not to leave finger prints.
Scott Gahimer
10-20-2014, 05:35
If Marc at Keystone Arms is selling this as an original US&S, he needs to have someone examine it that knows Model 1911A1 pistols.
I agree. It's not a US&S...and it's not a M1911 either.
Is the slide real? It does not look like the roll stamps in the "big books". I realize there were more than one roll stamp, but I could not find this one?
Best Regards,
Blockislander
10-20-2014, 07:02
I stand corrected after looking again. The roll marks are definitely wrong
Is the slide real? It does not look like the roll stamps in the "big books". I realize there were more than one roll stamp, but I could not find this one?
Best Regards,
I think I answered my own question---the slide serrations do not look right---too wide.? (Also, the left grip does not fit properly.)
Mike Josephic
10-20-2014, 11:49
Agree with the previous posters -- it's not what the seller is claiming it to be. It's an attempt to recreate
an original S&S and not very well done.
Someone will get screwed on that.
Marc@Keystone
10-23-2014, 07:20
Sorry Guys but no one is getting screwed except for the consignor. A member emailed me a link to this thread and I pulled the plug on the auction. When I read Scott Gahimer's post I knew I was dealing with Junk his reputation precedes him. I've read the story of "First Day of Production Colt #33" I believe I have the serial number correct.
A friend of mine purchased this Firearm at the Louisville KY gun show earlier this month from some fellas from Tennessee. He has had buyers remorse from the beginning and he asked me to move it on down the line. ($5500 to answer the question running through most of your minds) Neither of us were qualified (not even remotely) to determine weather or not this piece was real. I know double action Colts, think I'll leave the 1911s to the experts.
Thanks to a member (Pistol1954) for keeping me from running this one completely off into the ditch.
Best Regards,
Marc
Keystone Arms
Johnny P
10-23-2014, 07:38
If the buyer knows who he bought it from, he should seek redress on a pistol that is illegal to possess, much less sell. While the serial number is a US&S number, it is not original to that receiver.
The really troubling part of the pistol is that the markings were applied with a roll die rather than the engraved or pantographed markings were are use to seeing. While not illegal, it certainly isn't ethical to apply manufacturers markings to a pistol that never had them, but the serial number is another matter. The set up to do roll markings isn't something you find in every gun shop, as this is a rather sophisticated operation to apply them. While the circle/RCD and the serial number were laughable in their crudeness, the roll markings are certainly much better than anything I have seen to date.
http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p529/OldGussie/IMG_1590.jpg
http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p529/OldGussie/IMG_1593.jpg
Sorry Guys but no one is getting screwed except for the consignor. A member emailed me a link to this thread and I pulled the plug on the auction. When I read Scott Gahimer's post I knew I was dealing with Junk his reputation precedes him. I've read the story of "First Day of Production Colt #33" I believe I have the serial number correct.
A friend of mine purchased this Firearm at the Louisville KY gun show earlier this month from some fellas from Tennessee. He has had buyers remorse from the beginning and he asked me to move it on down the line. ($5500 to answer the question running through most of your minds) Neither of us were qualified (not even remotely) to determine weather or not this piece was real. I know double action Colts, think I'll leave the 1911s to the experts.
Thanks to a member (Pistol1954) for keeping me from running this one completely off into the ditch.
Best Regards,
Marc
Keystone Arms
Marc,
It could be that anyone interested in vintage pistols may be screwed.
It would be very nice to determine the source of this pistol. Whoever made this, will probably make more. I would like to see them in jail. (Why does it seem that this might have come from that large foreign country that keeps re-popping collectibles?) Just imagine an environment flooded with fakes!---And, parts from those fakes! (Check-out the patina on the front strap again.)
Your friend has serious redress with the person that sold this to him. Hopefully he has good contact information on that person and they cooperate. I would like to see the authorities involved.
Please keep the forum informed on what happens in this case!
Regards,
P.S. Show us the barrel details---it does not look right either.
Marc@Keystone
10-24-2014, 03:07
Yes I have the Contact Info. My friend actually wrote a personal check to the seller of the firearm and the seller FedExd the gun to me. I have a copy of the sellers drivers license I used to enter it into my bound books.
We will reach out to the seller and see what his stance is. I'll keep the Forum posted as we progress.
I will field strip the gun and post pictures of whats inside. The barrel is stamped HS but it's perfectly clear there is a bigger story for this firearm to tell than what meets the eye.
Marc
Johnny P
10-24-2014, 10:25
I am more inclined to believe the pistol is home grown. It is a far step ahead of some of the crude fakes we have seen, but still has too many details that are not correct. As we can see it fooled at least one buyer, but an experienced collector would have picked up on the problems immediately.
Scott Gahimer
10-24-2014, 10:59
The receiver is an Argentine that was imported, provided it is forged and not cast. In many cases, one who fakes such pistols does not remove the interior serial number on the back of the receiver, under the MSH. Perhaps they think leaving one serial number clears them of breaking the law, but it doesn't.
The dimensions of the recoil spring housing (dust cover), visible receiver around the stocks and squared off profiles are the dead give-away to the Argentinean pistols. They're dirt cheap, easy to acquire and end up being used to fake all kinds of more expensive pistols...including Singers. Every visible marking I was wasn't right, nor was remotely convincing...but too many people just read the markings and miss the characteristics that truly identify manufacture.
I'm glad you pulled the auction. I tried to contact you by phone and via PM at the Colt forum.
Marc@Keystone
10-24-2014, 01:17
Hey Scott,
Sorry I missed you, you could've steered me in the right direction earlier.
Would you mind trying me again? I would like to discuss the situation a little more in detail.
Thank you,
Marc
Keystone Arms
724-651-4133
Yes I have the Contact Info. My friend actually wrote a personal check to the seller of the firearm and the seller FedExd the gun to me. I have a copy of the sellers drivers license I used to enter it into my bound books.
We will reach out to the seller and see what his stance is. I'll keep the Forum posted as we progress.
I will field strip the gun and post pictures of whats inside. The barrel is stamped HS but it's perfectly clear there is a bigger story for this firearm to tell than what meets the eye.
Marc
Marc,
Any news on this pistol? Have you and Mr. Gahimer come up with anything?
If it is not to much trouble, when you are shooting pictures of the barrel and insides for us, please remove the left grip and show a picture of the area around the top grip bushing and please remove the main spring housing and show us a picture of the receiver flat under it.
Regards,
The receiver is an Argentine that was imported, provided it is forged and not cast. In many cases, one who fakes such pistols does not remove the interior serial number on the back of the receiver, under the MSH. Perhaps they think leaving one serial number clears them of breaking the law, but it doesn't.
The dimensions of the recoil spring housing (dust cover), visible receiver around the stocks and squared off profiles are the dead give-away to the Argentinean pistols. They're dirt cheap, easy to acquire and end up being used to fake all kinds of more expensive pistols...including Singers. Every visible marking I was wasn't right, nor was remotely convincing...but too many people just read the markings and miss the characteristics that truly identify manufacture.
I'm glad you pulled the auction. I tried to contact you by phone and via PM at the Colt forum.
Mr. Gahimer,
In your discussions with Marc at Keystone Arms, did you confirm that the receiver is an Argentine?
I initially though it was most likely Argentine. But, the finger cutouts and the mag well thwarted that conclusion.
Best Regards,
Marc@Keystone
10-25-2014, 06:44
Mr. Gahimer has called me and left a message. I was out trick or treating with my 2 year old so I missed him, there has been no communication as of yet.
I have the gun on the bench today, let me know if there are certain areas you guys would like to see. I tried to upload into this message but this site looks as if you can only use a URL. We will upload them to photo bucket and attach the link soon.
Tommy2guns
10-26-2014, 07:51
Finally, an honest dealer! Spread that disease Marc....
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