No 4 Mark 1 comment and question

[Brad]

I have a nice looking Savage made rifle I have had for 5 or 6 years and never paid much attention to.
Was going to go shoot it today as I picked up some ammo.
Found the bolt wasnt closing right so I went on line and soon had that figured out.
What I'm writing about is how crude this thing seems. And I remember a History Channel show saying this was the number one bolt action rifle made. It dont seem to compare with my 03' or model 1917, or a German Mauser military rifle??
Am I misiing something?
My question is that mine only has a simple flip up type sight similiar to a M1 carbine. The one on the internet had a more complicated rear sight ladder and slide similiar to a Model 1917 US rifle?
My question is, were there two different types of rear sight or am I missing part of mine???
Thanks in advance

[M1Garandy]

There are several different types of No4 rear sight.

[Art]

I have a nice looking Savage made rifle I have had for 5 or 6 years and never paid much attention to.
Was going to go shoot it today as I picked up some ammo.
Found the bolt wasnt closing right so I went on line and soon had that figured out.
What I'm writing about is how crude this thing seems. And I remember a History Channel show saying this was the number one bolt action rifle made. It dont seem to compare with my 03' or model 1917, or a German Mauser military rifle??
Am I misiing something?
My question is that mine only has a simple flip up type sight similiar to a M1 carbine. The one on the internet had a more complicated rear sight ladder and slide similiar to a Model 1917 US rifle?
My question is, were there two different types of rear sight or am I missing part of mine???
Thanks in advance

The Lee-Enfield family of rifles have a lot of advantages as a combat rifle. When they talked about it being "the number one bolt action rifle" they were speaking of it for this purpose only. For a variety of reasons its action cycles faster than any other bolt gun and rates of fire of 20+ aimed shots per minute were easily obtainable by a trained rifleman. One reason for this was the cock on closing action (I am guessing this was what you noticed with the bolt not "closing right.") There were several sights made for the No 4 rifles. You have the simplest but optically it was superior to most other bolt action rifle sights. Your sight can be replaced with one of the other versions and the original sight was a micrometer adjustable ladder sight with a large aperture battle sight which I find quite nice, the only problem, which is not a big one for combat applications, is that it was not adjustable for deflection but neither were Mauser sights.

The rifle is also extremely durable, easy to maintain and, if in good condition mechanically quite accurate. It is not a hunting rifle or, in its basic form a match rifle; it was made to kill people at ranges out to 300-600 yards and for that purpose it was very, very good indeed.

On the "crude" part, the Lee Enfields were actually quite costly to manufacture and were always made of the best materials available. The wartime finishes were rough and there were shortcuts such as the flip up rear sight but personally, if I had to use a bolt gun in combat a Lee Enfield system rifle, preferably a No 4 with the micrometer sight, would be my choice with a M1903A3 as my second choice; and I own fine examples of both.

[MJ1]

Form, function and beauty are all in the eye of the end user. Post a picture of this crude rifle.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/DSCF00112_zpsc6ad8050.jpg

[Ken The Kanuck]

Mad minute was a pre-World War I term used by British Army riflemen during training at the Hythe School of Musketry to describe scoring a minimum of 15 hits onto a 12" round target[citation needed] at 300 yards (270 m) within one minute using a bolt-action rifle (usually a Lee-Enfield or Lee-Metford rifle). It was not uncommon during the First and Second World War for riflemen to greatly exceed this score. Many riflemen could average 30 plus shots. The record, set in 1914 by Sergeant Instructor Alfred Snoxall, was 38 hits.[1] During the Battle of Mons, there were numerous German accounts of coming up against what they believed was machine gun fire when in fact it was squads of riflemen firing at this rate.[2]

[smle-man]

The #4 started with the Mk1 click elevation adjustable sight, moved to the Mk2 flip sight 300/600 yds with the difference split by fixing and removing the bayonet which changed the point of impact of the bullet, then the Mk3 stamped rear sight with slide elevation (two types of slide).

Regarding the crudity of fabrication of the rifle: I read somewhere that the estimated life of a Lee-Enfield once in combat was less than 6 months; after that it was either destroyed/lost or damaged in some manner and withdrawn for repairs. Making the nicest looking rifle on the battlefront seems pointless with that type of wastage.

[Brad]

Thanks all, and I got the bolt in correctly now I think, and it seems to work ok.
I plan on firing the rifle soon as I can get away for an hour or so.
Thanks for posting the photos, Mine looks about like those, maybe a little better condition?? Maybe not.
Has a fine bore.
By crude, I was basically refering to the sloppyness of the bolt. I guess I'm just used to a little more precision.
But I fully am aware that the more fine the tolerances in a battle rifle, the more problems that can come up.
This rifle is designed for a purpose and it does it well.
Mine is a Savage, US made, and I think mostly if not all matching. I have bayonet, scabbard and frog as well as the web sling.
I have some original mil;itary ammo also. I like to accumulate as much associated "stuff" as I can when I aquire a military rifle.
Thanks as always

[John Sukey]

Speaking of precision, you would love the Ross rifle, UNTIL you got it in the mud of the trenches! Canadians would scarf up any Lee Enfields they could get their hands on!

[JB White]

How does that old saying go? Something like:

The Germans showed up with hunting rifles.
The Americans showed up with target rifles.
The British showed up with battle rifles.

Personally I don't care for the 03A3 anymore. The sights are too fine for my eyes now. Really liked that Smith Corona though, but I couldn't have fun shooting it. Traded it off for British stuff.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/JBWhite/03A3action.jpg

[Art]

Thanks all, and I got the bolt in correctly now I think, and it seems to work ok.
I plan on firing the rifle soon as I can get away for an hour or so.
Thanks for posting the photos, Mine looks about like those, maybe a little better condition?? Maybe not.
Has a fine bore.
By crude, I was basically refering to the sloppyness of the bolt. I guess I'm just used to a little more precision.
But I fully am aware that the more fine the tolerances in a battle rifle, the more problems that can come up.
This rifle is designed for a purpose and it does it well.
Mine is a Savage, US made, and I think mostly if not all matching. I have bayonet, scabbard and frog as well as the web sling.
I have some original mil;itary ammo also. I like to accumulate as much associated "stuff" as I can when I aquire a military rifle.
Thanks as always

For a really sloppy bolt try a Mauser 98 of almost any variety. They have lots of play in every direction once they're unlocked. Mauser made them that way to ease operation in difficult conditions.

[Brad]

I remember hearing once of the problem with a German artillary gun breech. Had like a million moving parts. When it worked it was great, when it broke, it was junk.
The American gun had like three parts, never went bad.
Same thing I saw about the heavy German tanks in WWII. The drive train was very complicated and hard to repair. Add that it was still the same system designed for the far lighter tanks, and it was a recipe for disaster.
Plus it took far longer to manufactur.Really tough with bombs falling around your ears.
Thanks for all the input guys.
Finall, are these rifles worth anything? I been thinking of thinning the heard and just keeping the US stuff. The real reason I got it in the first place is cause it is Savage manuf in the US.
But I got just too mush stuff.
Thanks again

[Sunray]

"...how crude this thing seems..." Simple is a better word. Lee-Enfields were made for fighting. Your No. 4 has what is termed the 'battle sight'. Savage had a contract with the British government to make No. 4 Rifles. Check the headspace before you shoot it. Thousands of Lee-Enfields were assembled out of parts bins with zero QC.

[Art]

Finall, are these rifles worth anything? I been thinking of thinning the heard and just keeping the US stuff. The real reason I got it in the first place is cause it is Savage manuf in the US.
But I got just too mush stuff.
Thanks again

There are a lot of things that can affect price and location is one of them. Where I live a No 4 rifle with a bright and shiney bore with no rust in good working condition goes for about $275.00 to $325.00 retail. Add $25.00 for Savage manufacture and about $50.00 if it has a matching bolt.

[JB White]

That might hold true to a certain extent but it's not a steadfast rule

Some might pay a markup for a Savage, some (including me) will not. Savage made more No4's than anyone and Savage was not the only supplier of war materiel to the allies.
Also, I don't pay any markup for a matching bolt, although a mismatch will cause me to dicker the price down.

That having been said, Americans are suckers for anything "Made in America" and there are enough that will pay for that. Due to the numbers of importer/wholesaler/dealer mismatches there are some who will pay a markup for a matching bolt too.

Many of us will pay the same for a matched rifle and make no distinction between a Faz, Maltby, or Savage unless we are seeking a specific variance.
North American made No4MkI's command a slight premium over a MkI* on a regular basis all things being equal. It still boils down to "condition ,condition, condition" in that order.
The price is whatever your immediate market will tolerate. If you sell, set a price that will attract positive attention and get ready to dicker. Consider it a blessing when a person picks it up, looks at the price, and pays it! That always surprises the heck out of me but I learned to dicker on Chicago's Maxwell Street ;)