Krag vs Trapdoor…...

[JBinIll]

……..opinions vary.From the 1899 CofO reports-

http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p529/OldGussie/de0fe72c-758a-4ba6-a93d-b42f4941584e.jpg

[Griff Murphey]

In his book MISTER RIFLEMAN, Townsend Whelen remarked that rifle marksmanship is seldom important to senior officers past the grade of Captain. I think that is still true today, and here they are asking all these field grades these questions! Most probably hadn't shot in years.

[JBinIll]

Those were all units on duty in the Philippines.Thats at the tail end of about 10 pages dealing with problems with smokeless powder cartridges issued to troops in the Philippines which resulted with some problems in the Trapdoors.

[dave]

What the h... does ---do--- mean?

[deadin]

What the h... does ---do--- mean?

It means "ditto", but in this case I'm not sure if the ditto is referring to the "same as my other answer" or the "same as answered above".
From the pattern I think it means "same as above."

[jon_norstog]

As far as deadly effect, I'd think one hit from a 45/70 lead bullet would be far deadlier than a hit from a jacketed 30/40 round. But all around, the majors and colonels preferred the Krag. As far as the men in the field goes, Private Post wrote that his unit (71st NY), which was armed with trapdoors, rearmed themselves by picking up every Krag they could lay their hands on. (They arrived a little late for the Kettle Hill charge, but were moved up to a front line on the crest later in the day). No sooner had they cleaned and greased the Krags than QM showed up and took them away.

I remember reading a letter home from a Michigan volunteer infantryman who said the regulars refused to allow them in the same positions, because they didn't want to be given away by the smoke from the Michigan volunteers' TDs.

Interesting that the "grownups" considered the TD a more accurate weapon.

jn

[JBinIll]

Interesting that the "grownups" considered the TD a more accurate weapon.

jn

Actually most of them preferred the Krag.The report that was taken from is several pages long,too long to scan,download,upload to photo bucket.The report wasn't about Krags,it was about the test in the Philippines of smokeless powder cartridges in the trapdoor.If your unit had known nothing but trapdoors and black powder and were then handed a Krag and said here go get em' given the differences in trajectory between the two your marksmanship might not be too hot either.

[John Sukey]

I sometimes wonder what genius decided you had to load loose rounds in the Krag instead of loading a clip of five in a mauser.
In any case they would NOT have made it to the top of kettle hill if it had not been for Lt. Parker's gatling guns keeping the Spanish heads down!
For that matter, Roosevelt might never have become president but rather a casualty instead.

[blackhawknj]

The stripper clip was such a new idea even the Germans hadn't adopted it. Their standard rifle in 1898 was the M1888 using a Mannlicher clip. U.S. military thinking was primarily defensive-hence the cut-off. Make each shot count, load singly, keep the magazine in reserve in case you were rushed. Besides the advantage of smokeless powder is negated by wearing bright blue uniforms-pantalon rouges in the case of the French. Even the Germans were wearing blue uniforms and that Spanish raydillo uniform-with a straw hat-yes, I know, Post says the first Rough Rider casualty they encountered said "You can't see 'em!"

[Dick Hosmer]

You raised an interesting point. I am not an authority on things Mauser at all, but, actually Germany did NOT adopt any of the early Mausers (1891, 93, 95, etc.) for their own service, did they? Clip, or charger, loading was fairly common in Europe by the 1890s, however.

[13Echo]

In 1892 when the Krag production was begun US thinking about a combat rifle was shaped by the Indian wars and was not concerned with being a world power taking on European armies or acquiring colonies overseas. The ability of the Krag magazine to be recharged with the bolt closed on a round was thought to be a worthwhile advantage. The clip loading systems then in use in Europe did not allow topping off the magazine. The stripper clip was not in use when the trials that led to the Krag were held and the early true Mausers were still not yet available or ready for presentation in finished form. If the trials had been held in 1892 or 93 the story might have been different. It is possible to make a type of rapid loading clip for the Krag magazine, it is just rather bulky and delicate. The late 19th century was a time of rapid innovation and progress with numerous flase starts and dead ends that seemed reasonable at the time. The Krag served well in its short life but it proved to be an interim solution like so many other rifles in so many other countries at that time and it certainly was a long way from the worst weapon ever used in battle.

Jerry Liles

Jerry Liles

[Dick Hosmer]

In 1892 when the Krag production was begun US thinking about a combat rifle was shaped by the Indian wars and was not concerned with being a world power taking on European armies or acquiring colonies overseas. The ability of the Krag magazine to be recharged with the bolt closed on a round was thought to be a worthwhile advantage. The clip loading systems then in use in Europe did not allow topping off the magazine. The stripper clip was not in use when the trials that led to the Krag were held and the early true Mausers were still not yet available or ready for presentation in finished form. If the trials had been held in 1892 or 93 the story might have been different. It is possible to make a type of rapid loading clip for the Krag magazine, it is just rather bulky and delicate. The late 19th century was a time of rapid innovation and progress with numerous flase starts and dead ends that seemed reasonable at the time. The Krag served well in its short life but it proved to be an interim solution like so many other rifles in so many other countries at that time and it certainly was a long way from the worst weapon ever used in battle.

Jerry Liles

Jerry Liles

VERY well put!!

[11mm]

I do not (currently) have access to Brophy or Mallory's information on which Mauser rifles were evaluated by the Ordnance Dept. when the Krag was being selected. However, the 1889 Belgian Mauser and the 1891 Argentine model were in existence and even production in 1892, and they both loaded with stripper clips. Did the Krag (per the above response) really start in production in 1892? I think that there was a hold-up, was there not, due to review of the selection process? I suspect that stripper clips were simply not important to all armies, however good an idea they turned out to be.

[Parashooter]

The appendix of Brophy's book shows numerous plates from the ordnance activity that resulted in the Krag's adoption. Several clearly show a diverse variety of clips and chargers, including the Belgian Mauser 1889 below. The concept was neither new nor unknown at the time.

http://i62.tinypic.com/fum145.jpg

One of the reports Brophy includes (p.13) indicates the board considered "packet" or "charger" loading a desirable, but not essential, feature.

"Fifth. It is desirable that the magazine be susceptible of easy loading from auxiliary charge[r]s or packets, and essential that these chargers or packets form no part of the magazine mechanism."

[jon_norstog]

"Fifth. It is desirable that the magazine be susceptible of easy loading from auxiliary charge[r]s or packets, and essential that these chargers or packets form no part of the magazine mechanism."


In other words, "James Paris Lee, you may take your detachable magazine and go home."

jn

[Parashooter]

In other words, "James Paris Lee, you may take your detachable magazine and go home."

Not at all. The board's objection is to the Mannlicher style of "en-bloc" clip - as a necessary part of the magazine mechanism. The Lee detachable magazine is still functional without any "clip" present. (This is one example of how it makes sense to distinguish between a "clip" and a "charger" - unfortunately not often done in US English and resulting in the awkward "stripper clip" usage so common here.)

Eventually, the Ordnance Department embraced the en-bloc, but it did prove troublesome in the M1 rifle and was happily abandoned in favor of a Lee-style detachable box for the M14 and subsequent US service rifles.

[Rick the Librarian]

As I recall, Krag production did not commence until about 1894.

[Dan Shapiro]

Eventually, the Ordnance Department embraced the en-bloc, but it did prove troublesome in the M1 rifle and was happily abandoned in favor of a Lee-style detachable box for the M14 and subsequent US service rifles.

The Ordnance specs for the new "semi-auto" rifle included the stipulation that: 'The rounds will be held internally, a box magazine is NOT wanted or DESIRED.'

By 1944, with the planning of the Japanese home islands in the planning stages, SA was working OT to develop a "kit" that would convert the existing M1's to a magazine fed weapon.

[Rick B]

This is a clear cut show of Tried and True or not wanting new change. It was seen with the 1903's .vs M1 Garand. The troops loved their 1903's and scorned the Garand in every way possible. They even started the Clip "Ping" lie back then while trying to attack the New M1. Funny part was once they were being attacked these marines stole all the Garands they allowed to slip out of their hands earlier. It appears some loved their Trapdoors and just didn't want change. The Krag clearly had more capabilities and by far was better with more capacity and a lighter bullet for better trajectory. Rick B

[Rick B]

As Dan shows above a reference to the Box magazine. many do not understand all of our wars were fought in a trench up until WWII so a Box magazine would get caught on the edge of the trench. They wanted a smooth bottom for easy movement on the ground or edge of a trench. Rick B

[Rick the Librarian]

Soldiers tend to be inheritently conservative - they gripe about every new weapon and piece of equipment they get. There were complaints when the Krag was replaced by the M1903, the M1903 by the M1 and so forth. Such was the truth when the Trapdoor was replaced by the Krag; especially with the teething problems the Krag had in the beginning.

[gnoahhh]

Holy cow, Rick! The 1903 was replaced by something called the M1?? When did that happen?:eek: