View Full Version : Type 2 NM paperwork
A few years back I bought a Type 2 NM rifle at auction. It had no paperwork, but I could tell it was correct. When I sent my $25 to the CMP, they sent me a typed letter stating the rifle was sold (1964 I think) as a NM rifle. I called to ask if I could get copies of the actual paperwork and I was told "no, because it has the original owner's personal information."
I am planning on selling the rifle as I thin the herd. My question is, does having copies of the original paperwork add any value above having CMP documentation that the rifle is a true NM Gararand?
Should I call back (now years later) asking for redacted paperwork?
The paperwork that you received is enough to document the fact that your rifle.......by serial number........ is an original & genuine NM Garand. Congrats guy, you got lucky.
As far as being able to tell a real from a humped one......... be advised that there seem to be a bunch of very good fake M1 NM rifles, M1D rifles coming from the Gulf coast area of the USA........... so good that they'll fool the experts & they cannot be found in any DCM/CMP files............ that's because they were built from Blue Sky & Arlington Ord. imported Garand receivers.......... using original USGI NM barrels & parts., the same on the M1D's.............another scary fact is that some of the guys are talking about faked DCM & CMP papers......... I haven't seen any yet...... but that is scary..............
I knew this one was righteous the moment I saw it. The auction house just had it listed as an M1 Garand. It is a 6 million with all the final upgrade stamps on the barrel, texbook bedding, marked trigger group, etc.
But, back to my question, does having a copy of the original sale paperwork make a difference?
In the eye of some but not all beholders. Really, the only thing you're lacking is the original DCM shipping memo (single sheet of paper). You've got as much as can be had today from THE authoritative source (CMP) to confirm authenticity. Good luck.
you are good to go...............the original DCM paper would add nothing.......... all that is needed is a genuine CMP letter stating that it was originally sold as a NM M1 Garand..............and you already have that.
Repeating on my note above............. the fakers in the Gulf area are creating & selling faked NM Garands (& are making & selling fake M1D's too)......... with everything you listed above..............but they cannot get papers like yours from the CMP.........
The very first NM rifles they faked/built used Garand rifles/receivers purchased thru the CMP.......and at least one was sold thru the WTS/WTB Shoppers board here.............but the purchaser called the CMP & gave them the serial number of the receiver & the rifle came back as a common rack grade or field grade sold to someone in the Gulf area..........The buyer raised enough heck & he eventually got his money back......
But there are still some folks from the Gulf who insist that their non-CMP papered NM M1 Garands & M1D Garands that they are selling are just as good & valuable as those that were created by the Springfield Armory (USGI one) & the M1D's created by the US military......but if you cannot get the CMP letter documenting the rifle as original.......... walk away from the purchase....... unless you can get that rifle for very little or nothing...............say $200.00 or a little more. (cost of the receiver) & what ever you think you can sell the other parts for........ being aware that fake/repop NM Garand & M14 sights are out there.
Again, Congrats on picking up a fine rifle.
Johnny P
11-19-2014, 01:59
Just like the M1D, don't go by looks alone in determining whether they are original or not. All the parts were available for many years, and more than a few were built in someone's garage.
And I hate to remind anyone that there are archived threads over at the CMP boards in which several collectors documented with photos that some people faked up quite a few CMP "certificates" of the type that come with a M1 rifle purchase. The good news would be that such certificate is NOT the same thing as a CMP search letter based on review of the old DCM records in CMP's possession. You can't be too careful nowadays with any kind of collectibles.
Date sold by CMP will become VERY important in the future. The CMP sold a bunch of Greek returns as NM - so cmp papers saying sold on X date back in the day is solid - CMP says as NM, question further
I will pay a little more for original sales papers - but not a huge premium (5% max)
Steve
Cosine26
11-19-2014, 09:59
If I were to sell my Type2 NM, I would include all of the paper trail from the original letter request for purchase to the Railway Express (remember Railway Express?) waybill because I shall be dead and my heirs would be selling it. I even have a copy of the check that I forwarded to pay for the rifle. That would be provenance, I believe. I even have a record of every round fired trough the rifle.
A few years back I bought a Type 2 NM rifle at auction. It had no paperwork, but I could tell it was correct. When I sent my $25 to the CMP, they sent me a typed letter stating the rifle was sold (1964 I think) as a NM rifle. I called to ask if I could get copies of the actual paperwork and I was told "no, because it has the original owner's personal information."
I am planning on selling the rifle as I thin the herd. My question is, does having copies of the original paperwork add any value above having CMP documentation that the rifle is a true NM Gararand?
Should I call back (now years later) asking for redacted paperwork?
Yes, I would ask for the redacted paperwork. It sounds like you had the same scenario that I did.
The following is from a prior post:
The CMP was able to provide a letter and a copy of the original sales card for my NM Type 2 rifle that was sold in 1963. As I recall, all the cards from RIA were sent to the CMP around 1999. I read about it at that time and requested the letter for a rifle which I had bought without documentation. They initially sent just the letter. Later, in 2010, I read a post that included a copy of the card another forum member had received with their letter. I contacted the CMP again and they sent me a (redacted) copy of the card.
The more paperwork you have the better. I love to see the old envelopes and copies of money orders etc. that accompany some of the DCM rifles and will pay more when they are there.
Cass
I received from the CMP paperwork almost identical to what Cass posted above except the name of the original purchaser was blacked out on the second form.
I received from the CMP paperwork almost identical to what Cass posted above except the name of the original purchaser was blacked out on the second form.
On my copy it appears they used white-out or something similar.
Cass
I have a Type 1 NM rifle purchased at Camp Perry at the conclusion of the 1957 National Matches. I have the "CASH SALES SLIP" showing the price of $ 99.00 plus $ 4.50 ( tax or handling charge) for a total of $ 102.50. It also shows the rifle serial number, who the rifle was sold to and the signature of the Army person, a Sgt. in my case, who sold the rifle " "for the Ordnance Officer, 1957 National Matches". Another member of this forum has a Type 1 he purchased at Camp Perry at the conclusion of the 1958 National Matches and received the same "CASH SALES SLIP" as I have. In 1999 he sent to CMP to see what, if any, record they might have. CMP sent him a letter stating the rifle was sold to him through CMP/DCM at the 1958 matches.
I sent to CMP but they had no record on my rifle.
I believe that all the "CASH SALES SLIPS" of the rifles sold at the National Matches were forwarded to the Erie Army Depot and subsequently to Rock Island Arsenal. Information from these slips and from the DCM mail order sales were, at some point, transcribed onto the "Ordnance Corps " Form 1172, by summer help. CMP was able to get quite a few, but not all of these 1172 forms, and if you are able to get verification consider yourself lucky.
Roadkingtrax
11-21-2014, 06:15
Joe, when you get tired of that rifle...please let me know. I believe it is the one we both were admiring.
I have a NM M1 Garand that was purchased at Camp Perry as a gift for our late friend & neighbor..... His father in law shot there every year. and he bought it as a gift for his new son in law. Upon his death, his lady had several of the guys in our club to set prices on his firearms as their kids didn't want them...... she offered me 1st pick, at the prices listed............& the NM Garand was one of those we purchased.....
We called CMP & Marla was able to find it in the records & charged us the $25.00 for the letter.........2111, I know of more than a few NM Garands that were purchased at Camp Perry. and all letter from CMP as NM rifles sold at Camp Perry........ I'm not sure, but I believe cash was the only thing taken back then for the rifles/arms sold at Camp Perry matches. Good luck to you sir.
Joe, when you get tired of that rifle...please let me know. I believe it is the one we both were admiring.
Will do but looks like it may be quite awhile.
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