View Full Version : To restore or not?
I just received a very nice 5.8 mill SA from the CMP this week and after disassembly I found that two parts are not correct for the rifle. The bolt is a 19SA and the op rod is a post war rebuild. All internals, barrel, stock, sights etc. are in excellent shape and are correct for the time period. Should I get a correct bolt and op rod an have an all correct post war SA for my collection? Or do I leave it as is since changing out parts will alter any historical significance it may have? I have restored M1s in the past with some only being a receiver to build upon, however the search got tiring. Curious to what peoples thoughts are on the subject.
The bolt and op rod you need are not too difficult to find and if they are the only parts that do not fit the time period, I would change them. The parts in the rifle now could have been substituted during a group cleaning session.
Did you receive a field or service grade rifle?
@Cody - Have you checked the receiver and stock for rebuild markings?
Can you post a photo of the barrel markings in the area behind op-rod or if not, post all the numbers, letters and other marks you see. You may be able to tell if the barrel was originally a NM barrel or not.
If you had just changed out those couple parts, not said anything to anyone, WHO would have known the difference?
Change them out ............ don't look back. We won't tell anyone.
I'm trying to upload pictures but so far it is not working. The numbers on the barrel are SA F6535446 2 55 A218B Original barrel to the receiver I would say. Of course there are random markings such as "T" "U" two proof "P"s and two punch marks. No other marks are visible.
Ok I figured the pictures out. I know I could just swap the parts out and your are correct no one would ever know. I'm just curious what everyone's thoughts are on restoring guns and altering them from how they are received from the CMP.
DRAGONFLYDF
11-22-2014, 12:37
Originality wins out over CMP,
Dean-DGR
11-22-2014, 01:21
The question is...what makes you happy. If value is an issue, your CMP certificate list it's grade, so changes would not get past an educated collector. If you change the bolt, make sure it still has good headspacing.
Dean-DGR
Well the reason I posted this thread to begin with is the odd items I have found with this rifle. One being the grind mark on the barrel with what looks like a "N" still being slightly present. Also, the stock ferrule has been polished on the inside so it doesn't rub the op rod? What I was wandering was is it possible this gun was being considered for a NM gun then the idea was shelved? There are no rebuild markings anywhere on the gun. I would like to make it correct but I just don't want to mess with it if I shouldn't.
Had you not gotten the rifle from CMP I would have made a guess as to the "grind mark" on the barrel over what appears to be a N. First, I would think import mark that someone tried to remove. Be sure you hold on to the CMP certificate or it would be hard to sell in the future. Most will think IMPORT. Really, if it were me, I would most likely call CMP and see about having them replace the rifle. It seems like when something is returned for a good reason they usually replace it with something better.
There is only one other possible reason for the grind mark that I can think of. Maybe it was destined to be a NM rifle. Many Type 1 NM rifles (over 3000) were downgraded to issue/service grade but, to my understanding, this was prior to the NM stamp being applied to the barrel. Maybe some were downgraded AFTER the "NM" inscription being applied and the "NM" inscription just ground off. This is something I am not sure about. You could go on the CMP forum and send a PM to RollingThunder and he would be able to tell you. Or go on the MilSurps forum and ask the question. Bob Seijas usually will answer any NM related question on that forum.
FWIW, CMP also has answered questions from people with what appear to be official certs of authenticity as to whether the cert and/or SN shown is accurate.
If you can send up any more pics of that ground-off area on the barrel some us are familiar with which abbreviations and lettering were used by which importers of the 80's-90's.
Thank you all for the contact info. I had thought of sending the rifle back, however it is in great shape. Minimal wear on the rifle and the gauges within new specs. I will try and upload more pictures so all can see the barrel mark and the polished stock ferrule. Yea, I will keep my certificate and sale bill from the CMP as most people will always assume import. If I had not purchased the gun myself I would have been skeptical. Thank you all for help and tonight after work I will get more pictures up. Also, any information I get will be passed along. Thanks.
If it was mine I would try to locate a proper barrel in the correct 3 month range. They are fairly easy to find post-war. That plus the couple of parts easily changed out, would make it a "Period Correct" Garand and worth more .. to me anyway.
It's part of the fun in collecting Garands. You find out what you need, then watch the Buy and Sell Boards, the Auction Boards, even E-Pay. When one pops up, you spring into action... and fast.
us019255
11-24-2014, 07:18
Take the rifle, a bandoleer of M2 ball in Garand clips to the nearest rifle range and shoot the rifle! Garands were made to be shot, not obsessed over. Repeat as often as needed until the desire to make a museum piece disappears.
PhillipM
11-24-2014, 08:49
The rifle was original when it left the factory and became unoriginal when the first part was swapped out and it can never be original again.
The CMP certificate is worthless. You can buy a bare receiver from the CMP with a certificate and build up whatever you like. I know of a trust fund baby that just went there with six buddies and bought 72 Garands. He is stripping them down and making them "correct" (a bogus term if there ever was one) and reselling them for profit with their CMP certificate.
If it were me, I'd leave it alone and enjoy it for what it is, a darn good rifle!
To answer your original question it wouldn't hurt anything to add the correct parts to your rifle as those parts do not have any real historical value as to that particular rifle nor is it in itself a particularly rare rifle. Now if it was a late WW II rifle with the correct parts for a 52 dated build or an SA-52 marked reduild with period correct parts or an O-65-67 marked rebuild that would be different as the parts can add to the provenance. As to the scratched off mark on the barrel given the barrel date I would guess it is original to the rifle and I would not mess with it. Two possible explanation that I can think of for the barrel marks would be a possible NM marked barrel that was rejected for not meeting NM standards and put back in regular production in time to be mated to your rifle or the rifle was slated to be a NM and rejected for some reason and the NM scratched out. Of course this is all just a guess.
No M1 Rifle needs nor is its value increased with "correct" parts. Doing it is a waste of time and money. If you do so and subsequently sell the rifle as a "correct" rifle without telling the prospective buyer you put 'em in, it's fraudulent. Oh and the picture in post 8 is a gouge. Not a grind or scrape mark. Too irregular for anything else.
The trust fund baby is violating his agreement with the CMP too.
Cosine26
11-24-2014, 02:02
To restore or not to restore is your prerogative-it's you rifle. I have a SA rebuild that I bought through the DCM back in 1972. It has a SA receiver and WRA bolt with a couple of other mixed parts. The condition is unfired/pristine condition -just as it left the Armory after rebuilld. The barrel is stamped "T" which means it was test fired and targeted. As far as I am concerned, this rifle is in RFI (ready for issue) condition and I do not intend to change one part. I have not fired it and probably will not. I have a NM M1, and a "built" Match grade M1 which I have shot in competition. I know that this is a "rebuild" and of no collector value, but I am not a collector-I thought that it was well worth the $98.00 I paid for it..
Two possible explanation that I can think of for the barrel marks would be a possible NM marked barrel that was rejected for not meeting NM standards and put back in regular production in time to be mated to your rifle or the rifle was slated to be a NM and rejected for some reason and the NM scratched out. Of course this is all just a guess.
Keep in mind that the NM inscription that is located on the barrel between the rings of the gas cylinder is NOT inscribed until AFTER the rifle has passed all required tests. This inscription indicates that the rifle has been accepted as a NM rifle. Also Type 1 NM rifles were selected from regular production and will have a barrel consistent with all rifles of the same time period.
Update. I contacted Bob Seijas and he said 4000 NMs were sent to Greece and another 3k more were disassembled. He said it is possible that my rifle was one of those but there is no way of knowing if the US military or the Greeks removed the stamp on the barrel. No way of knowing if my gun was a NM or not. It does however fit in the serial number range of many NM rifles.
Fun to speculate if nothing else.
again.... the best advice that you received. was given by Dean of DGR. a very noted M1 Garand smith............paraphrasing Dean,....... to replace parts to return your rifle to a correct status is your choice. But if you do replace the bolt with another. it MUST be checked to see if it head space's correctly on the barrel....... regardless if it is the correct revision number or color........... it Must headspace as good before you can leave it in the rifle..........If it was mine... I'd have it headspace checked before I bought the replacement bolt...............
Judging from the number of Garand parts sold on Ebay, Gunbroker and other sites, it appears that the restoration hobby is still quite strong. Restorations in all fields is just in our human DNA. Cars, motorcycles, homes, furniture, repurposing old stuff..........The sheer number of Garand source books and periodicals, scream at us to participate to improve the old gun a bit. Presenting something as original or correct, is just a click away at Gunbroker....some very nice stuff and some obviously restored stuff sells briskly.......caveat emptor.
No M1 Rifle needs nor is its value increased with "correct" parts. Doing it is a waste of time and money. If you do so and subsequently sell the rifle as a "correct" rifle without telling the prospective buyer you put 'em in, it's fraudulent. Oh and the picture in post 8 is a gouge. Not a grind or scrape mark. Too irregular for anything else.
The trust fund baby is violating his agreement with the CMP too.
My lone early WWII Winchester was bought from the CMP about 14-15 years ago. Naturally it had nearly all SA parts. Along the way I have acquired Win parts to where it's now about 95% "Original" period parts. Just last year I was able to score a WWII Winchester barrel with a TE of about 2.0. When I was screwing it onto the receiver, I was GIDDY with excitement. I said to myself, "This stuff is FUN ......".
Do YOU think it's worth more now than when I bought it?
I would bet it is worth more with Winchester parts vs SA. How about my May of '43 SA. I bought it as a Danish less wood. It did have the original May of '43 barrel and a few other small parts that were correct for the rifle. After about 1 year of searching for correct parts and a suitable EMCF stock it is all correct. I would say it is worth more now than the $295 I bought it for.
I do agree with the folks that say do what makes you happy with the rifle. I have friends with M1s that are complete mixups and they couldn't care less. But yes I will use my headspace gauges if I get the correct period bolt for the rifle. I do thank you all for you input.
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