Marine M1903 Parked Finish on M1 Carbine?

[cplnorton]

Ok, long story short I heard of a bringback M1 Carbine for sale from an estate. I went to go look at it. It was supposed to be sent home with a grenade launcher on it, in a canvas carbine case. The Grenade launcher was sold before I had a shot at it. I know the person who was offering it up for sale. They would not lie. But I was more concerned with families who get confused. Many times vets buy carbines later in life, and the carbine LIKE they carried in the war, becomes the ONE they carried in the war. So that is what I was concerned about.

Anyways, it's a 1.36 million Underwood. It was pretty much all matching and correct. The rear flip is obviously changed and I posted pics last week and the consensus was it was a repo. The type I band no one knew for sure, but Tuna commented that it was supposed to be blued, and it is parked.

The case I got with it, had a man's name on it. And he said that is who brought it back. When I ran his name, I found out he was a Marine who enlisted in the 1950 period, and landed at Inchon and fought through the Chosin Resevoir. He was also part of a famous company at the Chosin. He was Fox Company, 2nd Battalion 7th Marines. He is also featured several times in the book The Last STand of Fox Company.

Anyways the rest of the carbine seems all correct to the book. I see no parts that aren't correct except for the rear sight, and possibly the band might have been changed. There are no stake marks on the receiver at all. I some what suspect it might have had an adjustable sight and type III band. But I'm not 100% sure on the band.

So the finish looked off to me, and not like the other early Underwoods I had. But I couldn't place it. And it didn't look like normal rebuilds I run across as the finish was so light.

So I didn't put 2 +2 together until today when I was putting in a safe and put it beside a Marine rebuild 1903 from the 1941 period, and then I had a sort of an ah-ha moment.


First, the rifle.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1190974_zpse3d9ba6c.jpg

The supposed case it was sent back in.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1190976_zps5e36c4b7.jpg

Rollin Hutchinson was in 2/7 Fox Co and landed at Inchon and fought through the Chosin. He was WIA twice and lived his whole life in Toledo Ohio. The rifle was found in Toledo Ohio. And was sold by his family as the one he brought back.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1190981_zps5f67d43d.jpg

It's a lengthened 1944 Carbine Case.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1190984_zpsa4bda94b.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1190627_zps6b454a22.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1190628_zps09234b5e.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1190630_zps9b250b67.jpg

[cplnorton]

This is what I noticed when I put it side by side with my 1941 Marine Rebuild 1903 with the light colored distinct Marine parked finish.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1190990_zps17160a06.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1200001_zps8f7bfb2c.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1200004_zpsf24deb3b.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1190995_zpse250105a.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1190994_zpse4d4801f.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1200012_zps53a052f5.jpg

[cplnorton]

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1200029_zps5eb45249.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1200037_zps3415cf12.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1200050_zps11f9bd89.jpg

Finish even appears the same on the bolts. Marine rebuilds often have dark colored sights and bolts form WWII

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1200026_zpsb9f9f178.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1200023_zps96b5109c.jpg

[cplnorton]

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1200004_zpsf24deb3b.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1200055_zps00a9e2b5.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1200052_zpsad092269.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1200056_zpsa52faaf1.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1200057_zpsbed6ee6b.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1200028_zps6c56a1f3.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1200008_zps4c6bb5a3.jpg

[cplnorton]

The rifle had a grenade launcher on it that was sold to another individual before I had a chance at it. When I looked up the Marine's MOS that was on the bag, he was a 0334, which is a anti-tank assaultman. I believe they did make a anti tank grenade for the carbines during Korea.

Also I noticed the muzzle of the rifle is beat up, like it got pounded at the end of the barrel. A good friend told me that is where most of the force of the grenade launcher hits. And then the stock is also cracked in the slingwell. I've never seen one break in this area. But I did read the grenade launchers broke stocks a lot. This is the cracks in the slingwell.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1190615_zpsc7f9e340.jpg


I suspect this might be a Marine Rebuild M1 Carbine. It is all correct from what I can tell and the finishes all match too close to be a total pieced together carbine. I suspect this might be a pretty original carbine that was rebuilt, with attention to get the correct parts back with the rifle. Sort of like how some of early 1911 rebuilds seem to keep all the correct parts but just refinished. Again it all matches too close I think to be a total restoration.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1190628_zps09234b5e.jpg

I also suspect this might have had an adjustable sight, and possibly a bayonet lug. Maybe the vet decided to swap them out and make it look more correct. I do not know. This is how my friend received it, and the band I do think might be original. This is the pic of the barrel. I can't decide if there is a shadow or not. The front sight pin has for sure been removed. But they might have done it when refinished and put the band back on. I do not know.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/chosin%20carbine/P1190624_zps68eaf3f5.jpg

[cplnorton]

The only other important info I can think of is the Marine was a Resevist. He was at the local Toledo Reserve unit and was called up to Korea without ever even attending Boot Camp. He was at the Chosin and then sent to a hospital on Guam I believe. He then returned stateside and was discharged.

So what do you guys think. Am I just crazy, or is that Marine parkerization on a M1 Carbine? I know we have never figured out a way to tell a Marine M1 Carbine. I'm wondering if this might be a way.

[Tuna]

cplnorton, PM sent.

[cplnorton]

At one time I owned an original 1.4 underwood. I finally found pics, this is the receiver side by side with my old pic. The metal does look much smoother than my other one.

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s441/cplnorton3/receiverfinishpics1.jpg

[Sunray]

The troopies were not allowed to keep their issued weapons after any war. If it actually is a so-called 'Vet Bring Back' service weapon, it's stolen. No rear sights like that in Korea either. Buy the rifle, not the story.

[joem]

All in all it's a very nice carbine and wish it was mine.

[cplnorton]

The troopies were not allowed to keep their issued weapons after any war. If it actually is a so-called 'Vet Bring Back' service weapon, it's stolen. No rear sights like that in Korea either. Buy the rifle, not the story.

There is evidence of early featured carbines in use by the 1st Provisional Brigade early in the war. It is said the need for weapons was in such great demand that they pulled them out of mothballs from WWII and handed them out and that was that. In fact the demand for bodies was so great, the vet above never even went to boot camp. He went straight to the fight.

Now for this Underwood, I imagine he changed the flip sight and type I band. I think it was probably a pretty well original rifle except for the upgrades and the vet might have wanted to swap it to something more original. I don't think you could piece this together from an armory rebuild and have it all match like that on the rest.

I did talk with some Marine experts offline and they agreed they think it at least appears to be Marine Corps finish. I'm hoping the family will be able to provide more evidence of where it was acquired. It might have been just luck he found one in say the 60's that had that finish. It's hard saying.

As far as stories go, I've been able to document some kick butt stories. I agree most are crap, but some stories are real. That is why it is so important to investigate everything and see what all you can document. :) Looking at the rifle the story does seem plausible, so that is why I am investigating it more.

But here is a pic from Korea of the First Provisional Marine Brigade near Pusan. That carbine sure looks like it has a type I band. For the 7th Marines, the unit this vet fought with, all pics show the late features. Again I think this one has probably been changed. Just showing early featured carbines did exist in Korea.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1491661_371033343059394_5253073069839584748_n_zpsa 580437c.jpg

[CPC]

Long thread and I'm not sure I've got everything correctly ordered but in wwii if you were hospitalized it was hard to keep souvineers so I suspect it would have been even more difficult to keep a personal weapon in Korea. Also I have not seen any combat weapons with white painted rack numbers. Most I have seen were garrison weapons post war. Was this a common Marine trait? Just a couple of thoughts. While this weapon may have been corrected to wwii ( not sure why since most carbines at that time had bayo lugs and from what I've read and been told they
Wanted them) it is possible. A few years ago I purchased an outstamding 43 inland once that I believed was a true bring back. Only problem was a couple of years ago the vet had a hack put a bayo lug on it after he visited the Marine Corps memorial. I asked him why he did it and he said if it was good enough for the Maines it was good enough for him. I couldn't tell him it was an artists mistake at least I think it was.

[browningautorifle]

It IS a nice carbine. Love the grey park and blue bolt and over all hand worn finish. Great looking carbine.

[Maniac]

Nice Underwood, cplnorton. It could well be a former USMC weapon, have you ever looked for a Springfield Research Service hit on it? Thanks for sharing!

[cplnorton]

USMC's are all mixed here and there in the SRS in this range, but nothing concrete.

1335454 111544USMC - QUANTICO
1336959 041046RCMP (SEIZED)
1337090 02 44EVANSVILLE ORD PROOF WEAPON
1341849 101849USMC - 4TH MARS CAMP LEJEUNE
1344088 110652DEPT OF JUSTICE
1346141 031445OSS FLD PHOTO CEYLON
1348104 030850USA RADIO STA
1350219 040544BUTTON RIFLING TEST

1360636 (My Underwood)

1363465 032950PENNA NG (TURNED IN FOR REPAIR)
1363631 030948RED RIVER ARS
1367310 0315431ST INTERCHANGEABILITY TEST
1368044 0315431ST INTERCHANGEABILITY TEST
1368333 020250RED RIVER ARS (SCRAPPED RECVRS)
1368815 0315431ST INTERCHANGEABILITY TEST
1368866 0315431ST INTERCHANGEABILITY TEST
1369251 0920451379TH AAF
1369430 0315431ST INTERCHANGEABILITY TEST
1375886 013048USMC - MAG-33
1381100 120546USMC - CAMP PENDLETON

[Embalmer]

love how that pic, they are using (I assume the troopers) own b.a.r. as a stretcher of sorts to carry him

[gsp45]

cplnorton other than the obvious......replacement stock, I have to question your opinion on the rear sight and bbl band having been replaced. The posted pics are not conclusive. You obviously have a better view, but what is makiing you think they've been replaced? Just curious

[cplnorton]

cplnorton other than the obvious......replacement stock, I have to question your opinion on the rear sight and bbl band having been replaced. The posted pics are not conclusive. You obviously have a better view, but what is makiing you think they've been replaced? Just curious

This is the post with really good pics. I posted it over on the cmp forum as well and they said the flip was fake.

http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?50268-Question-on-flip-sight-and-band-real

[cplnorton]

And for the band there is no question the front sight has been off. The pin has been driven out before.

[gsp45]

Much better pics. It sucks, but I agree.