Anyone had any dealings with Michael Tyson on Armslist?

[Rick the Librarian]

(No, not THAT Mike Tyson!!!) :)

There is a guy on Armslist who has a M1911 and three other firearms. He has the email address of kfjhhdh@yahoo.com . He lives in Dover PA.

Anyone had dealings with him, now and in the past? Email or PM me if you have.

Details to follow later./

RtL

[cplnorton]

No but Armlist right now is getting really bad for scammers. I've had two friends this month alone that have been scammed. They keep on taking pics from gunbroker and listing them for sale.

With an email address of kfjhhdh@yahoo.com, it sounds like he is a scammer. :(

[1563621]

The only time I deal on armslist is a FTF! [armed]

[usmc69]

I take it you were burnt..........

[1563621]

I was burned on gunbroker for 1650. GB refunded their max. which is 400.00 Had to jump thru hoops for one year to collect that.

[stan4]

Does sending funds with USPS money orders through the USPS mail help?

Anyone have experience with fraud protection with the USPS? MAIL FRAUD?

They tell me they will make a full refund while they investigate (or at the end of the investigation?)! Is this true???

Best Regards,

[Scott Gahimer]

No, that's not true when you willingly send USPS money orders to someone. That becomes a civil matter. Been there, done that. I ended up convincing my local Prosecutor to pursue it. But I don't think there are many Prosecutors who will take that stand for you.

[1563621]

USPS , you are on your own!

[Rick the Librarian]

Yes, I was "burned". Before I go on, I should say that dealing FTF and locally is probably the safest way to go, but in looking at my firearms collection, I would say that 2/3 to 3/4, if not more, of my firearms were purchased online.

I offered to buy a M1911 online through Armslist. The seller had me send funds and I did use a USPS money order (it was $600 shipped). The money arrived and then I started getting excuses as to why he couldn't ship the pistol over several days. He did keep in email contact. After a week, a good internet friend (whom I had been keeping up to date about this) sent the guy an email (this was done as a "test") asking to buy the pistol. To nobodys' surprise the guy said to send the money and he would send the pistol. This was a week after he had received money from me! Obviously trolling for another victim.

The one mistake the "seller" made was giving his name and address. In addition to filing a USPS fraud report (I've gotten various opinions on how effective that is), I contacted the local police department where the seller lived. Got ahold of a very helpful officer who paid the "perp" a visit. He wasn't there, but his sister was. She said the guy bounced around a bit and, to her knowledge, did not possess a firearm. The policeman said he had six outstanding warrants but didn't say for what. He also told me that, while he would be more than glad to bring the guy in, I would have to testify locally, which would mean going back to Pennsylvania (I live in WA State), which would hardly make sense.

I do have another Internet friend who is a state policeman back east, and he's checking with some contacts in the area for me. At this point, I doubt I'll see my $600 and also doubt the pistol even existed.

As a friend said, every time you send off money to a person selling through the Internet, you take a chance. From what I have been told, Armslist seems to be the worst sales/auction site of the bunch and I'll be avoiding them in the future.

[usmc69]

Sorry to hear about your misfortune. You are right it would not make sense dollarwise to prosecute the dirtball. However, it may give immense satisfaction to be there to see him get some jail time for fraud. That is interstate fraud, isn't that a federal offense?

[ignats]

I would think it is mail fraud, but I do recall years ago a seller in the NC who was advertizing P38 pistols in American Rifleman I paid with a USPS money order and long story short, I filed with USPS. I also called American Rifleman and told them what happened. They cancelled his ad. I think he was eventually arrested. I don't know what happened after that. I was able to get a bunch of C96 Mauser parts from him as a consolation so it wasn't a total loss. You would think an ad in American Rifleman would be safe. All this happened before the internet really took over. I do recall buying and some selling via the Automag back then. Most of the time all you had was the seller's description of the gun and if you were interested and the seller knew of your reputation, you shipped the pistol and if he liked it, he paid you. If he didn't, he'd send it back on his dime and enclose some money to cover the shipping you paid to get it to him. Can you believe it? I'm sure people got stuck, but thankfully I never did.

[stan4]

So far, So good!

I (generally) stopped bidding/buying on line (or from other advertisements)---and paying up front---many years ago. If they do not want to ship to me (at their expense) after I send my FFL---I do not need to examine their FA. I need to examine what I am buying before I pay. (I always cordially invite a prospective seller to hand deliver their FA if they would like.) Yes, there have been exceptions, but I generally know the FA and the seller. There are a few problems with this approach, but, So far, So good!

Best Regards,

[Scott Gahimer]

...After a week, a good internet friend (whom I had been keeping up to date about this) sent the guy an email (this was done as a "test") asking to buy the pistol. To nobodys' surprise the guy said to send the money and he would send the pistol. This was a week after he had received money from me! Obviously trolling for another victim....

Hindsight is always 20/20. You should have done the "test" before sending the money.

[Rick the Librarian]

Hindsight is always 20/20. You should have done the "test" before sending the money.

Very true - I thought I was above rookie mistakes, but I guess I wasn't. :(

[Scott Gahimer]

Rookie mistake, or not, look on the bright side. The pistol wasn't $6000 and you didn't get your ear bitten off.

I think most of these scam artists target folks looking for a bargain, so their prices are low. They're never going to deliver the goods, so low price is their way to attract a lot of "buyers". You'll make more money faster with 10 guys sending you $600 than hoping to get 2-3 guys for $2000. When most people start to spend any real amount of money, they start weighing the odds a lot more closely.

Old lesson; a new day. If it sounds too good to be true, chances are, it's not true.

[Rick the Librarian]

Yes, it was a classic case of "if it's too good to be true", but I have had a few of them pay off in the past. Just lost out, this time. It was for a Springfield M1911, so I can claim temporary insanity! :D

As long as I'm playing "true confessions", anyone remember Springfield M1911 #115182 coming up for sale in another venue?

[KeithNyst]

For peace of mind, there are now escrow options (like escrow.com) that serve as a middle man to protect both the seller and buyer. It works like this:

1) Buyer and seller agree to use escrow.
2) Buyer deposits money in escrow.
3) Seller ships to Buyer
4) upon receipt buyer either accepts or rejects.
If buyer accepts, escrow agents releases funds to seller
If buyer rejects, buyer must return item within x days to seller, seller confirms receipt of returned item and escrow returns funds to buyer.
If buyer does not accept or reject within X days, escrow agent releases funds to seller.

Fees are about 3% of sale price. Be careful ... there are scam escrow services, use a verified one.

[Rick the Librarian]

Scott, you're quite correct - it was not a real high price - of course, I would have been a LOT more careful had it been. While $600 is far from an insignificant sum, I felt it worth a chance.

Does anyone know if a significant number of people are going with escrow services?

[usmodel1873]

Just the suggestion of escrow might have solved the problem before it happened.

[Scott Gahimer]

I literally don't remember the last time I bought a gun online from someone I didn't actually know. It's been years. I don't use sites like Gunbroker, Gun Auction, Armslist, etc. I might consider using a sales board on a forum with a user that's been around a long time. I won't even send money to someone who offers me a gun before I receive and inspect the gun.

The idea of Escrow services may be good, but I don't think there are too many sellers eager to use them. Most honest sellers, I think, want plain and simple. They like to think they are trusted. I don't find Escrow offensive, but some would. I just choose to sell to members of my site, with whom I've already established a working relationship. I sometimes buy from my members, too. I avoid buying from people I have to worry about. I prefer face to face at shows. That's plain and simple.

[Johnny P]

How do you get people to send you firearms on approval? If I knew the person I was sending it to it would be no problem, but sending an expensive gun to someone I didn't know would be no different than the problem Rick is in.

[Scott Gahimer]

I'm talking about people who contact me through my web site. Normally, they're already members and have contacted me about selling. They'll sometimes send the gun for inspection, with the option of me listing it on my site for them, sending it back to them to sell, or buying it myself. I won't pay someone to inspect their pistol for them, and i don't require them to pay me anything up front. Once I receive the gun, I tell them what they have, what their options are (with pricing) and they decide what they want to do...buy an inspection, sell me the pistol or have me list the gun for them and pay me when it sells. Most guys like that because it doesn't require them to pay for anything until they know exactly what they have, and then, only if they opt to take the gun back. I don't offer free inspections, but it works out to be free for guys when I buy from them. I also pay their shipping expense when I buy, or pay it both ways should I decline to buy after I agreed to look at it with the intention to buy. In that case, I require decent photos and a general price range up front, so I can make a decision about whether or not I might be interested in buying. If it's too high, I say "no, thanks". If it looks good and the price is reasonable, I say "yes, please ship it". So far, that's worked well for the guys who want to sell something. I buy it, or I am willing to help them sell it on my site, or by providing the written inspection letters, data sheets and a photo CD with all the images so they can sell it themselves. They eliminate the shipping charges back to them, if I help them by listing it on my site. Everyone gets something. I sometimes get a gun. They get to sell a gun, and my site members often get the opportunity to buy out of my Classifieds.

I'm not talking about contacting an unknown seller online and asking them to send me the gun on approval. I'm just not eager enough to pay up front to someone I don't know and trust. I've often traveled to do face-to-face deals. I don't have anyhting problem with that either, but won't drive very far, unless it's something rare and desirable.

[Johnny P]

I'm talking about post #12.

[stan4]

I'm talking about post #12.

Johnny P,

Have you ever tried it (you might be surprised)? Yes, usually the seller knows me (or I have been recommended). I will send them my FFL, and they want to sell. If we can not do a deal, I pay to return the FA (to an FFL). (One problem---I have had sellers [that have my FFL], send me unsolicited pistols.)

Please allow me to plagiarize/quote from post #22. I'm just not eager enough to pay up front (for a FA) I don't know (good pictures help---but it is difficult to evaluate from pictures). I've often traveled to do face-to-face deals. I don't have ---- problem with that, but won't drive very far (or fly), unless it's something rare and desirable.

Have you ever had someone you met at a show, ask for your FFL (or a FFL you use), to ship you a FA for approval?

So far, So good!

Best Regards,

[Rick the Librarian]

I wouldn't doubt that all these ideas are good. I tend to agree with Johnny that I don't run into too many people willing to send firerms (or much of anything else) on approval. I do favor those sellers who say you can return the firearm for just cause, as long as you pick up the freight both ways. I can also say that, while I certainly don't wish to relive the experience, this has been the ONLY transaction I've been stung - and I've done this dozens of times. The only other time was when I sold some parts and the buyer's check bounced. I even got this worked out.

I also agree with Scot about using "established" buyers and sellers - but once in a while, that special deal comes along, and yes, it is a chance.

[Johnny P]

Johnny P,

Have you ever tried it (you might be surprised)? Yes, usually the seller knows me (or I have been recommended). I will send them my FFL, and they want to sell. If we can not do a deal, I pay to return the FA (to an FFL). (One problem---I have had sellers [that have my FFL], send me unsolicited pistols.)

Please allow me to plagiarize/quote from post #22. I'm just not eager enough to pay up front (for a FA) I don't know (good pictures help---but it is difficult to evaluate from pictures). I've often traveled to do face-to-face deals. I don't have ---- problem with that, but won't drive very far (or fly), unless it's something rare and desirable.

Have you ever had someone you met at a show, ask for your FFL (or a FFL you use), to ship you a FA for approval?

So far, So good!

Best Regards,

No I haven't, and don't intend to. Without payment I would not ship an expensive pistol to someone I do not know. An FFL isn't a guarantee of character.

[coltgrabber]

Another scammer on ArmsList goes by (D P utahdealer97339@yahoo.com). I found that out by requiring anyone I deal with over the internet to email me a copy of his FFL (signed & currently dated) plus a valid telephone contact number before I send them spit.........He wouldn't do it so I told him I was turning the information over to ATF for trying to sell guns interstate without a license and to the US Postal Inspector for Mail Fraud. Never heard from him again. When I do get the information, I look up the license to assure that it is valid and then do a reverse lookup on the telephone number. If it's a cell, I ask for a street address.

[ignats]

As far as ATF is concerned you don't need an FFL to sell guns interstate, you need to send the seller an FFL to receive a firearm from someone in another state. While I wouldn't have a problem giving out a phone number to prospective buyers and answering serious email inquiries, I wouldn't send you a copy of my FFL (C&R) just because you were interested in buying a gun I was selling. The last I heard, you can't look up Class 3 FFL's (C&R). Frankly, if someone started asking me for that sort of information I would probably not respond.

[coltgrabber]

As far as ATF is concerned you don't need an FFL to sell guns interstate, you need to send the seller an FFL to receive a firearm from someone in another state. While I wouldn't have a problem giving out a phone number to prospective buyers and answering serious email inquiries, I wouldn't send you a copy of my FFL (C&R) just because you were interested in buying a gun I was selling. The last I heard, you can't look up Class 3 FFL's (C&R). Frankly, if someone started asking me for that sort of information I would probably not respond. FFL's may be confirmed at either this site http://www.fflregistry.com/Confirm-FFL/site or their BATF database. at https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/. You better believe that I get a copy of someone's FFL if a transfer of a firearm interstate is involved either way. An FFL certainly doesn't insure character but you can bet your life ATF will be interested in a holder of an FFL accused of mail fraud!

[ignats]

Well, try that with a Class 3 FFL-C&R which many collectors such as myself have.

FFL eZ Check does not validate Type 03 (Collectors of Curios and Relics) and Type 06 (Manufacturer of Ammunition) licenses. All attempts to check the validity of Type 03 and Type 06 licenses will result in an error message, even though the licenses may be valid. An FFL should not use this error message as reason to deny dealing with a Type 03 licensee.

Whether or not ATF would be interested in the seller not shipping you the gun is debatable. They may refer you to USPS for mail fraud or the local PD. Like I said earlier, if someone wanted a copy of my C&R FFL, prior to buying a gun that I was selling, I would most likely not do that. Some sellers in the past have sent me a copy of their FFL's some don't. There's no law requiring the shipper/seller to even have an FFL, but before he can ship to a buyer in another state, he must have a license (depending on the type of gun involved) from the person who is going to receive it. I suspect you've missed out on some deals if you insist on having a seller send you his FFL. In my experience, most of the nice collectible pieces come from individuals rather than gun dealers and some of them don't have any type of FFL. Good luck and good collecting.

[coltgrabber]

Well, try that with a Class 3 FFL-C&R which many collectors such as myself have.

FFL eZ Check does not validate Type 03 (Collectors of Curios and Relics) and Type 06 (Manufacturer of Ammunition) licenses. All attempts to check the validity of Type 03 and Type 06 licenses will result in an error message, even though the licenses may be valid. An FFL should not use this error message as reason to deny dealing with a Type 03 licensee.

Whether or not ATF would be interested in the seller not shipping you the gun is debatable. They may refer you to USPS for mail fraud or the local PD. Like I said earlier, if someone wanted a copy of my C&R FFL, prior to buying a gun that I was selling, I would most likely not do that. Some sellers in the past have sent me a copy of their FFL's some don't. There's no law requiring the shipper/seller to even have an FFL, but before he can ship to a buyer in another state, he must have a license (depending on the type of gun involved) from the person who is going to receive it. I suspect you've missed out on some deals if you insist on having a seller send you his FFL. In my experience, most of the nice collectible pieces come from individuals rather than gun dealers and some of them don't have any type of FFL. Good luck and good collecting. Being prudent and doing due diligence with who you are dealing with comes with 35 years of law enforcement at both the municipal & federal level. Maybe I have been lucky, but I have never had anyone refuse to exchange licenses once I have sent them one. I won't say being scammed won't happen, but the likelihood is certainly minimized for me. I'll leave interpretation of Title 18 USC, Chap. 44 up to you as to how you interpret and follow the law. My wife accuses me of being paranoid anyway! Happy Holidays!

[pdawg1911]

No I haven't, and don't intend to. Without payment I would not ship an expensive pistol to someone I do not know. An FFL isn't a guarantee of character.

Man is that ever the truth. I have had more bad experience with shifty dealers falsely describing guns than with private sells or FFL 03 collectors.

[pdawg1911]

Well, try that with a Class 3 FFL-C&R which many collectors such as myself have.

FFL eZ Check does not validate Type 03 (Collectors of Curios and Relics) and Type 06 (Manufacturer of Ammunition) licenses. All attempts to check the validity of Type 03 and Type 06 licenses will result in an error message, even though the licenses may be valid. An FFL should not use this error message as reason to deny dealing with a Type 03 licensee.


Just a FYI - If a seller or a dealer is really hung up to verify that a FFL 03 is valid, they can contact BATFE's WV Licensing office toll free at (866) 662-2750. I have called them in the past, and they have always been fast and professional.When I asked why the C&R information wasn't published on-line, I was told because it is a home residence, and for safety reasons, didn't want to have a public viewed database of private residences for potential home robberies.

Thanks,
Pat

[1563621]

Just a FYI - If a seller or a dealer is really hung up to verify that a FFL 03 is valid, they can contact BATFE's WV Licensing office toll free at (866) 662-2750. I have called them in the past, and they have always been fast and professional.When I asked why the C&R information wasn't published on-line, I was told because it is a home residence, and for safety reasons, didn't want to have a public viewed database of private residences for potential home robberies.

Thanks,
Pat

I always wondered why 03s cannot be verified, Thanks, now I know!

[1mark]

Rick, I have been scammed also, but this is what I did. And it works.
!) contact the Attorney General of PA fraud division. File a formal complaint. They will investigate right away. Especially with a firearm.
2) If you mailed it fiale a report with the USPS inspectors office.
3) File a report with your local police and the PA police in the city of the seller.
4) As it was done on the internet, call the FTC an file a fraud complaint. They only act if there is more than one complaint. But it is a start.
By filing the police reports you make your position stronger. Filing a false police report is a crime in its self. I also told the AG office that I did this and reminded them that it is a crime for filing a false report.

You may not get you funds back, but it will scare the he?? out of the seller.
Good luck Mark