Model 12 Trench Gun - Help

[student of history]

Hi Gents,

A close friend of mine recently acquired this Winchester Model 12 Trench Gun and has requested that I help him either authenticate it (or not). My knowledge on military shotguns is very minimal so I was hoping to get some opinions from you trench gun aficionados.

Thanks in advance

- Chris

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o629/Student-Of-History/Trench%20Gun/TrenchGun1_zps36e7743d.jpeg (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/Student-Of-History/media/Trench%20Gun/TrenchGun1_zps36e7743d.jpeg.html)

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o629/Student-Of-History/Trench%20Gun/TrenchGun2_zps4bfa177f.jpeg (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/Student-Of-History/media/Trench%20Gun/TrenchGun2_zps4bfa177f.jpeg.html)

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o629/Student-Of-History/Trench%20Gun/TrenchGun3_zps36cf6730.jpeg (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/Student-Of-History/media/Trench%20Gun/TrenchGun3_zps36cf6730.jpeg.html)

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o629/Student-Of-History/Trench%20Gun/TrenchGun4_zps16045863.jpeg (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/Student-Of-History/media/Trench%20Gun/TrenchGun4_zps16045863.jpeg.html)

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o629/Student-Of-History/Trench%20Gun/TrenchGun5_zpsc52a8863.jpeg (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/Student-Of-History/media/Trench%20Gun/TrenchGun5_zpsc52a8863.jpeg.html)

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o629/Student-Of-History/Trench%20Gun/TrenchGun6_zps30f97c87.jpeg (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/Student-Of-History/media/Trench%20Gun/TrenchGun6_zps30f97c87.jpeg.html)

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o629/Student-Of-History/Trench%20Gun/TrenchGun7_zpsd5e42e05.jpeg (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/Student-Of-History/media/Trench%20Gun/TrenchGun7_zpsd5e42e05.jpeg.html)

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o629/Student-Of-History/Trench%20Gun/heatshield1_zpsc8b6c30c.jpeg (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/Student-Of-History/media/Trench%20Gun/heatshield1_zpsc8b6c30c.jpeg.html)

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o629/Student-Of-History/Trench%20Gun/heatshield2_zps1f9c1604.jpeg (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/Student-Of-History/media/Trench%20Gun/heatshield2_zps1f9c1604.jpeg.html)

[student of history]

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o629/Student-Of-History/Trench%20Gun/grooves_zps59b0c417.jpeg (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/Student-Of-History/media/Trench%20Gun/grooves_zps59b0c417.jpeg.html)

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o629/Student-Of-History/Trench%20Gun/tube_zps35c859e7.jpeg (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/Student-Of-History/media/Trench%20Gun/tube_zps35c859e7.jpeg.html)

[scosgt]

The adapter is wrong. The buttplate is a replacement. From what I can see in the pics and the serial number it may be an original riot gun that someone added an adapter.

[student of history]

Thank you for the quick reply. You actually raised a point that I forgot to mention in the description. The original plastic butt plate was cracked so the shotgun currently has a civilian metal butt plate installed but my friend is in possession of the original.

May I ask what makes you suspicious of the adapter? This is a learning experience for me so I'm eager to hear more.

[Tom Doniphon]

All Model 12 trench guns had the later type bayonet adaptor/heat shield with 4 rows of holes in the heat shield. The Winchester heat shields with 6 rows of holes are found on early made WW2 Model 97 trench guns and on the WW1 Model 1897 trench guns.

The serial number of the gun places it around the end of the range for WW2 Model 12 riot guns. Also, the Model 12 riot guns are usually found with WB marked stocks whereas the Model 12 trench guns have GHD marked stocks. So as scosgt said, it might be a riot gun converted to a trench gun. When the military converted the Model 12 riots to trench gun configuration they usually used a sleeve or shims on the muzzle end of the barrel to make the bayonet adaptor fit properly because the riot barrel have a slight taper to them at the muzzle end whereas the trench gun barrels do not taper.

[student of history]

Thank you for the quick reply Tom! Is there any way to determine if it's a military conversion from riot to trench opposed to someone doctoring it up in their garage?

Not sure if this photo of the end of the barrel will help in determining if it tapers or not.

- Chris

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o629/Student-Of-History/Trench%20Gun/IMG_4404_zps22bbd092.jpeg (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/Student-Of-History/media/Trench%20Gun/IMG_4404_zps22bbd092.jpeg.html)

[Tom Doniphon]

Is there evidence of it ever having a sight bead on the barrel?

[student of history]

I'm not sure whether this is a good or bad sign but there isn't any evidence (that we can see) of it ever having a sight bead installed.

[cplnorton]

Actually that pic above of the end of the barrel, that silver dot, doesn't that look like where a bead sight was? Is that pic of the top of the barrel while holding it?

[student of history]

The photo was taken by my friend - I'll have to ask him from which angle the photo was snapped. Perhaps this evening I will be able to get full 360° pictures of the end of the barrel.

[bigskybound]

I think that is just a scuff. It looks like it lines up with others along the barrel.

[SPEEDGUNNER]

Riot guns converted to trench had the hole for the bead sight filled with silver solder and the handguard/adapter covered it. The picture looks like that might be the case.