Krag carbine

[Fessor]

I'm interested in adding a carbine to my collection of US military firearms but don't know how to identify a true carbine. Can someone out there tell me what to look for in identifying a real Krag carbine?

[Dick Hosmer]

I'll TRY to keep it as simple as I can!

(1) There are three basic carbine models, 1896, 1898, and 1899.

(2) ALL carbines have 22" barrels with a smoothly brazed-on post front sight, just like the rifles. NO carbines had banded front sights!

(3) ALL carbine sights (1896, 1898, 1901, and 1902) are marked "C". Note that carbine model and sight model are often NOT the same.

(4) ALL carbine barrel bands were held with a spring. If the band is retained by a small pin, the stock has been made from a rifle. Reject the piece.

(5) The Model 1899 Carbine is the simplest - if a gun is marked "Model 1899", has a 22" barrel with proper front sight, a "C" marked rear sight, and is in a 32" stock without sling ring and bar, and has a smoothly rounded front tip, and barrel band is retained by a spring, you can be about 99.5% sure that it is OK.

(6) The Model 1896 Carbine is a bit more complex. They occur in certain serial number ranges only (as an example they begin around 24600, and there are are NONE in the 4xxxx and 5xxxx blocks) and may be marked "1895", "1896" or "Model 1896". They originally had 30" stocks with a sling bar and ring on the left side. When in that stock they used a special band with an upper projection. Only the Model 1896 rear sight is correct. Some of these guns were (post 1900) restocked with 32" stocks. Such pieces will lack the bar/ring and the special band. Any "C" sight is possible.

(7) The Model 1898 "Carbine" situation is a cesspool and should be avoided by novice collectors. The vast majority of such guns offered are fakes, both intentional and unknown to the seller, but bottom line is the same. Just 5000 were made in 1898, scattered from 112xxx to 132xxx, with major peaks at 118xxx and 119xxx, also a few around 131xxx. As originally made, they were identical to the 1896 carbine except for the bolt notch in the stock. But, nearly all were subsequently restocked to be identical to the new Model 1899 Carbine. ANY "1898" DATED CARBINE WITH A SERIAL NUMBER OVER 140000 IS A FAKE, at least as far as a novice should be concerned.

Yes, I've cut a few very small corners here, so the nit-pickers may flame away if they wish, but 99% of the time, the above will keep you out of trouble. I should mention that some perfectly proper M1899 Carbines were retro-fitted with rifle style sling swivels. I don't like 'em, I consider it to be a mutilation, and do not find it necessary to have one to complete a collection.

Hope that helps!

[dave]

That is a tall order for this forum. You need a book to look up serial number ranges, to start. I'm not sure that is a positive in some cases, certainly is not with 1998 models (only 5000 made). One thing any receiver stamped 1899 is/was a carbine, however may not be original as made. Many 1898 rifles were cut down and put in carbine stocks and even re-barreled with carbine barrels. These may out number real carbines. If you can post pictures of one you are looking at some people here could ID it with almost 100% certainty. Need many pics and detail of most parts. Just too much detail to post a general 'ID' for carbines.
PS:
Dick's answer above just came on my computer after I posted. Very good description, something I would not attempt being a 'novice', as Dick mentions. Dick puts it in a nutshell!

[5MadFarmers]

I'm interested in adding a carbine to my collection of US military firearms but don't know how to identify a true carbine. Can someone out there tell me what to look for in identifying a real Krag carbine?

A reputable auction site. Rock Island, Cowan's, etc., "If you don't know your jewels you'd better know your jeweler."

If you'd rather do the study of the parts yourself you'll need to hit the references.

I'd suggest Marcot's book on the Spencers first. It's a good book. After reading that you'll know that anything that looks like the guns in that book are probably not what you're looking for. Do the M-1903s next. Ditto those won't be it. You will see what a "banded front sight" looks like though so there is value there. Slowly circle in on the prey. It always catches it unexpectedly.

[Dan Shapiro]

Dick, that was a quick, down and dirty excellent summation!

[Deano41]

I'm interested in adding a carbine to my collection of US military firearms but don't know how to identify a true carbine. Can someone out there tell me what to look for in identifying a real Krag carbine?

Print Mr. Hosmer's instructions and carry it in your wallet! When you encounter a Krag carbine for sale, take the instruction page out and "stare and compare" before taking out your money.

As someone said, "there are more "carbines" for sale than were ever made by Springfield Armory!"

[Kragrifle]

Just a bit of advice. If you are going to collect anything, you are going to make a bad purchase now and then, no matter how much you know about your subject. Buy every book, talk to anyone that seems reasonable, but remember the majority of the folks you talk with really do not know as much as they think they do. If you just want one carbine, Cowan's is a good place to start as Jack Lewis is a good guy. Try to go to one of their auctions-I am still trying to.

[Rick the Librarian]

Dick, that was a quick, down and dirty excellent summation!

I agree, excellent summation, Dick! I've been "counseling" a couple of guys on the CMP forum and I may repost the above, with your permission, giving you credit, of course.

[Dick Hosmer]

Glad it was helpful. Any one is welcome to make use of the info (and credit would be appreciated if convenient) the only thing I ask is to give me a couple of days to tweak it, as it was done off the top of my head, at work, without any references at hand - for example there are more "no carbine" batches in the 1896, and I want to be sure I have the production peaks correct for the 1898. When it is ready, I will so mark the "reason for revision" box.

[Rick the Librarian]

Posted your suggestions and credit was given:

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?p=1200476#post1200476