israeli k98 help needed asap

[RickM]

I am generally knowledgeable about the k98 and its lineage. Today however i believe i ran across an israeli k98. All markings are leading me that way but i would like to bounce this off another 98 guy who knows about this little known part of the k98's history. I can email or text photos and woukd appeciate being able to chat with someone. I have a 5 day hold so any help will be appreciated.

Merry Christmas
rick

[Mickey Christian]

I am not very knowledgeable about specific Mausers, but...
I have have 2 Isreali Mausers. Both were, one still is, chambered in .308.
Both are 1912 Steyr's.
Don't remember how my older one was stocked, but my newer one has a cut down WWI Steyr stock
dated 1912 with the cleaning rod hole plugged. They must not have used one.
The receiver is also stamped "MODELO 1912" with "61" electro-penciled to the right and with NATO stamped beneath
the model designation.
On my .308 the receiver and trigger guard's numbers match but the bolt and floor plate do not match. The stock # does not match either.
I picked up this .308 because it has a pristine bore and plan on keeping it as I got it.
Can email pics if you like.
Mickey

[RickM]

There were essentially three types of 7.62 k98's. The last was the Spanish version you are referring to, the second was a Belgian version which is generally stamped by fn,. These are post war assembly from unused parts which were obviously originally intended for German army use but were never assembled or stamped. Some of the fn assemblies have an IDF stamp on them,I have one of them. These were all generally bored out to a more common 7.62 and the receivers are stamped such.

The one I bumped into then other day I think may have been used by the Israelis during the war against Syria and Egypt.

There was a stock of war captures these were also bored to 7.62 and pressed into service. They generally also had 7.62 stamped on the stock. This one has an obvious commercial stock and someone black painted the metal, the front site hood was pinned. The stock i can fix and the paint probably preserved the metal.

The exciting thing to me and what is making me think Israeli rifle is the rifle is a 1939 receiver so it is doubtful one of that age did not get put together and it also bears waffenamts,the commercial ones did not,

Contrary to a lot of common belief it seems from what I have found is the Israelis did not care about the stampings and did not waste time scrubbing the Nazi markings. The simply scrubbed an area on top of the receiver stamped that area 7.62 and put functional weapons directly into service.

This rifle seems to be indicative of that. And to me it is an exciting find. To think a rifle which originally was used in an attempt to eradicate a culture eventually ended up defending it is historically cool to me. That said it is at cabelas and has a used gun price of 399$. I am debating on taking the chance, there is a stamp on the receiver which I think may be a star of David under the paint, or do I try talking them down......

[Mickey Christian]

Good luck talking them down. I asked about a badly sporterized '03 Springfield from $500.00.
I would have accepted $400.00 but they would only come down $50.00. It really was only a $300.00 rifle at best.

So the Styer's were channeled through Spain at some time?

[RickM]

Yes that is my understanding from what research I have done. I wish i could quote a specific source for you but everything regarding post war assembly seems to be so vague its like following a blood trail while hunting.

[Mickey Christian]

That is interesting. I always thought Isreal converted them to .308.

[Clark Howard]

Keep in mind that the Jews were scraping up weapons of all types from all over the world in the late forties and early fifties. You may find almost any small arm with Israeli markings. The largest group of K98s were made up of parts obtained from rifles stripped and rebuilt with used and new parts. Many of these rifles had the winter trigger guard, the receiver marking ground off, with "7.62" stamped in their place. The heel of the stocks were also branded with "7.62". Armscorp in Baltimore imported a large number of these rifles in the 1980s. They were sold by various retailers for about a hundred bucks. Every one I have seen had an as-new barrel. Mine was so accurate, that I do believe that it was re-barreled in 7.62x51. Regards, Clark

[RickM]

Correct. This one has my interest because as far as i can tell the only ones with waffenamts and israeli markings were the early acquisitions and those just may have been involved in the defense of israel against eqypt and syria. Although that is something that could not be proven or disproven just the possibility and the irony intrigue me.

[BigMo]

I'm not sure of your question, or if you have one............

But the several Israeli K98 308's I own:
Are either FN commercial marked receivers with original 308 barrels.
Or German WW2 marked receivers with 308 barrels on them (Some were made by Remington?)

Most I've seen that are German WW2 marked have the swastika peened out but not all.

Does that help?

I didn't think (or wasn't aware) that the Spanish M1912 that were converted to 308 were for the Israeli's. I thought those were for the Spanish, much like their FR-8's.

Here's a link to an example:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=459498756


I will say this......... Look at the rifle in person! I found a lot of these rifles have poor bores!

[RickM]

Your right about the spanish ones. I dont think either the fns or the spanish ones were bored initially intending for use by the israelis. I think some of the fn's just ended up there at a later time.

And yes it helps. I guess its not so much a question as i was looking for moral support lol. The metal and bore look to be in good condition. I may see what i can make happen on it. Im pretty sure its a wartime nazi later used by israel.... just one of those validation needs by my extended culver family lol

[Tuna]

During the beginning Israel was fighting for it existence against the Arab league. WW2 98K's in original 8x57 was one of the standard weapons used by them against the Arab's. in 1948. This fight was one that continued for many years and with time many of the weapons they had were worn or shot out. So by the early 1960's they began to rebuild the 98K's for use by the home guards in the new settlements. Much military assistance was flowing from the US so it was natural to rebarrel these rifles in 7.62 x51 as there was plenty of ammo to use. By 1967 they had become secondary weapons for all of Israel as USGI arms were flowing into Israel. Much of it to replace lost or damaged weapons from the 1967 war. What has surprised me is that so many of the 98K's have poor bores and remind me of corrosive ammo being used which would not be right as all USGI ammo by then was non corrosive and I do not think that Israel used corrosive primers that late in their own production.

[BigMo]

My only thought on the bores is look at the condition of the rifles overall!!

I agree that by the time they were used in 308, that all the ammo was non corrosive. The bores don't look to be chrome lined.

When Century brought them in and I bought mine, the overall condition was horrible! Beat to hell and back! My thought was these were used hard, stored even harder and were just plain forgotten. So just as the stocks etc were in bad shape, the bores were too!

[BigMo]

PS............

To the OP:

Google the wartime NAZI k98 receiver markings and the FN 98 action markings. I have only seen the two- go back look again and see what it is. I have two---so I feel you.

[Mickey Christian]

I have to admitt that I only thought my 1912 Styers were Isreali. I did say that I don't know much about them. I am guessing now that my Styers were made for Spain.....?

[mike webb]

You will see a fair number of Czech produced K98's that were in Israeli service mostly redone in 7.62 NATO. The Czechs at Brno(DOT&SWP) and Bysterika(DOU) built rifles for the Germans during WW2 and following the end of the war kept right on making rifles using German marked parts in inventory. You will see DOT 45 marked receivers, a completely post war code as after DOT 44 the Czechs changed code to SWP 45. The DOT 45 marked receivers are believed to be renumbered rejected DOT 44 actions. Many will have WaA 63 marked parts and German barrel codes. Post war production Czech Israeli used rifles usually have the Czech rampant lion on the gun and are marked Brno on the left siderail. There are MANY in the K98 collecting world who consider the Czech produced rifles to be the finest K98k's produced for the German war effort. I have also seen a few refurbished VZ-24 service rifles with Israeli 7.62 stamped on the receiver and Israeli produced stocks with the finger grooves on the forend.
Generally Israel used whatever they could get their hands on in the 1940's and 50's.

[ClaudeH]

I believe there were a couple of different sources of these imports. I think the earliest may have been directly from Israel and a later batch had been sent to the Contras or somewhere else in Central America. I think the Central American ones are the ones that mostly have terrible bores. I think, I, believe, I suppose... Who knows?

Mine is a pre-war Czech which was over-stamped with waffenampts and the occasional swastika. All the swastikas have been over-stamped with Star of Davids. It has a good bore and it had a good deal of sand in various nooks and crannys when I got it.

It is definitely an historical artifact!