View Full Version : Two very early Rock Island 1903's rifles
SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE POST...It got confusing trying to post the photos one at a time instead of up to 5-10 at a time like you can with this forum but there's a problem with this site as it is not allowing me to post photos for now so I tried the other photo posting site to see if I can post photos here.
,
Here's my favorite two 1903's. The top one in the darker stock in the 1st photo is one of the first all correct period production RI rifles build in the first months of normal production. The lighter color wood was build up w/rod bayonet and 30-03 parts and issued out. For some reason I can not post photos using the normal site uploads so I'm just seeing if these tinypic site photos will work, Ray
Top photo
http://i62.tinypic.com/15hczu0.jpghttp://i59.tinypic.com/2w50idj.jpghttp://i58.tinypic.com/2w6z1qv.jpghttp://i58.tinypic.com/dzxmqr.jpghttp://i60.tinypic.com/28k4xgm.jpg
Bottom photo
http://i57.tinypic.com/2w2rksx.jpghttp://i57.tinypic.com/2us7wvr.jpghttp://i58.tinypic.com/mkkino.jpghttp://i58.tinypic.com/30lhwt5.jpg
Here's the sling on the later 07 rifle, the sling is dated 1905. I had posted photos of it on an earlier thread a couple weeks ago but all the those photos disappeared from that thread apparently because of problems with the site. It appears to be a prototype of the Model 1907 sling. Made by adding one more claw fastener and a lot of holes to the 03 model sling. Then later reducing the number of holes and adding 2" to the sling which then became the 07 sling.
http://i57.tinypic.com/2ylofo3.jpg
http://i57.tinypic.com/29uqc8m.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/300bsz9.jpg
http://i57.tinypic.com/2u5g9w5.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/hsjm2a.jpg
Just to add, Both rifles are all correct with the correct period parts, to include no bolt stocks, no grove hand guard, split leg rear sight base with both stocks still only cut for that type of sight. The early rifle was assembled with rod bayonet parts a 30-03 barrel that was re-chambered to 30-06 and a stepped back rear sigh and stock and was issued out that way,
Great pictures! Fantastic rifles!!! Nice
Ray, do either of the two rifles have a Solid rear band?
My Rock island 64145 has a RIA barrel 3-07 and still has the early rear sight leaf with the square edge and without the top rib. Bore is excellent ! It has had some updates such as a stock bolt but still a nice early rifle. My Rock island 3670 came from the CMP auction and I really like the receiver color, all rebuild and has a SA 6-10 barrel
unable to post photos ?
Ray, do either of the two rifles have a Solid rear band?
Fred, both have the split leg rear sight base and the stocks are only cut for the split leg bases not the solid base, Ray
My Rock island 64145 has a RIA barrel 3-07 and still has the early rear sight leaf with the square edge and without the top rib. Bore is excellent ! It has had some updates such as a stock bolt but still a nice early rifle. My Rock island 3670 came from the CMP auction and I really like the receiver color, all rebuild and has a SA 6-10 barrel
unable to post photos ?
Looks like your rifle is also one of the first RI's off the line in normal production where the serial number and barrel date match like the one I have. Probably was not issued out until 08-09 with the stock bolt being added before being issued. Is there a readable cartouche with a date on the stock.
I see you are also unable to post photos via this site. You need to find another photo posting site to post photos like I did until the folks here get things worked out.
Here's a page from the "Springfield Model 1903 Service Rifle" by John Beard and C.S. Ferris as you can see your rifle fits in there for 1907, Ray
http://i61.tinypic.com/2q8akcj.jpg
Fred, both have the split leg rear sight base and the stocks are only cut for the split leg bases not the solid base, Ray
Ray, no I was referring to the rear barrel band. On Rod Bayonet Rifles and on some early altered and assembled 03's, the rear barrel bands were solid at the base where the swivel screw goes through and not split like they became sometime in 1906 or 1907. Occasionally an early rifle shows up with a Solid rear barrel band.
Now I'm not referring to the split or solid sling swivels. Just the barrel bands.
Rick the Librarian
12-27-2014, 06:06
Here's my very early Rock Island M1903, which probably started out as a M1903/05. It has an early June, 1905 RIA barrel which was modified from 30-03. It does have a USMC-type front sight protector, which is a little unusual.
http://www.fototime.com/BE565A5A577D0C8/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/A5FB267DBDB82ED/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/A77BE4A44D10D49/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/25BF5DD2DF3A917/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/E0298778853A7EB/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/76A0B7034BA064E/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/9D48F222A51E341/standard.jpg
Ray, no I was referring to the rear barrel band. On Rod Bayonet Rifles and on some early altered and assembled 03's, the rear barrel bands were solid at the base where the swivel screw goes through and not split like they became sometime in 1906 or 1907. Occasionally an early rifle shows up with a Solid rear barrel band.
Now I'm not referring to the split or solid sling swivels. Just the barrel bands.
They are both split not solid Fred.
Rick that is certainly one beautiful rifle. I just love those early rifles with no bolt stocks and no sight grove hand guards. There's not many of them still around that haven't been re-arsenaled or up graded. Ray
There! I've finally been successful at posting a photo of the solid type rear band...
OK, too late since you've already informed me that both of the rifles have split bands. Thanks Ray!
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RBrearband_zpsb8a3dd82.png (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RBrearband_zpsb8a3dd82.png.html)
Is that on your Rod bayonet rifle Fred? Speaking of which, would love to see some photos of that one again, Ray
Yes Ray, I was able to replace the split band on my Rod Bayonet 03 with this solid and correct band that I received in a trade from John Beard. What a guy!
Gee Ray, I'd be only too happy to post some more photo's of my rifle. I'm going to try to take some new photo's of it though so that the good folk here don't get too overly tired of seeing the same old photo's that I've posted before. Let me see what I can come up with...
Here ya go Ray...
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/rifle13_zps8e7a4155.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/rifle13_zps8e7a4155.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/rifle11_zps9b21959a.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/rifle11_zps9b21959a.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/rifle12_zps3cc6a993.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/rifle12_zps3cc6a993.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/rifle10_zps8adf3aaf.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/rifle10_zps8adf3aaf.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/rifle9_zpsfec7f47c.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/rifle9_zpsfec7f47c.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/rifle8_zps5831ff53.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/rifle8_zps5831ff53.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/rifle7_zpscdffe303.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/rifle7_zpscdffe303.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/rifle6_zps68f16675.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/rifle6_zps68f16675.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/rifle5_zpsf1b46133.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/rifle5_zpsf1b46133.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/rifle3_zpsfe31ca25.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/rifle3_zpsfe31ca25.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/rifle4_zps8dfb8c64.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/rifle4_zps8dfb8c64.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/rifle14_zps21559a85.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/rifle14_zps21559a85.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/rifle16_zpsda95ddcb.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/rifle16_zpsda95ddcb.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/rifle2_zps08c33843.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/rifle2_zps08c33843.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/rifle17_zps8b7569c4.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/rifle17_zps8b7569c4.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/rifle18_zpsa685ec01.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/rifle18_zpsa685ec01.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/rifle19_zpsa10df375.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/rifle19_zpsa10df375.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/rifle20_zps81056717.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/rifle20_zps81056717.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/rifle21_zps52f25b94.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/rifle21_zps52f25b94.jpg.html)
Rick the Librarian
12-27-2014, 11:44
Show-off!! :D
Thanks Fred. That is a beauty! I just love to see that rifle. Nothing beats a Rod Bayonet rifle for an early 1903. Ray
Here's a photo of the rear sight with its 25 yard increments...
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/rifle23_zps15b211ef.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/rifle23_zps15b211ef.jpg.html)
Re: OP. Many thanks to you for sharing the pictures of these wonderful rifles! Very much enjoyed. Sincerely. bruce.
Hey Ray, since you and Rick enjoy looking at my 03 so much, I'll tell you what, if my wife and I ever go scuba diving next year in the Bahamas and we get eaten by a shark or whatever happens to people out of the blue, you and Rick have my permission to race each other up here and kick the door open and grab it. first one to grab it gets it. Of course you'll have to take all of the others too because if you don't, the boy or the girl will trade them in at the local gun store for a Peanut butter and Jelly sandwich and $100.00 per rifle. LOLOL!
Rick the Librarian
12-27-2014, 02:23
Sounds good to me -- I'll be rooting for the sharks!! :banana100:
If you start hearing that "Jaws" music ...
Tell the kids to forget the gun store, I'll double the number of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches they would give them for the guns, Lol
Rick, On the photos above of the early Rock Island 1903 serial number 16023 (?), I would think that the sight leaf would be without the top rib and that the slide would have the square edge on the left side rather than the later round corner ?
Here's my very early Rock Island M1903, which probably started out as a M1903/05. It has an early June, 1905 RIA barrel which was modified from 30-03. It does have a USMC-type front sight protector, which is a little unusual.
http://www.fototime.com/BE565A5A577D0C8/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/A5FB267DBDB82ED/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/A77BE4A44D10D49/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/25BF5DD2DF3A917/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/E0298778853A7EB/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/76A0B7034BA064E/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/9D48F222A51E341/standard.jpg
Rick, that rifle is incredible!
I hate you guys and your pretty guns! I'm going to buff, polish, re-blue and sand the stocks on mine so they look even prettier then yours. .http://i60.tinypic.com/oano1g.gif..http://i62.tinypic.com/1zqrhhi.gif...Lol, Ray
Well at least one of them looks good on my early 1900 display
http://i62.tinypic.com/et8uie.jpg
http://i57.tinypic.com/34xjl7q.jpg
Holy Cow Ray, You've got an advanced condition of Springfielditis!!! Wow! There's no cure for you buddy...
Really, that must not have been easy to find all of that stuff!
Took a few years. All is original. He's one of twenty fully dressed and originally equipped mannequins I have. Had fun setting them up, from CW through WWII. Here's a list of what is on this one
.
ARMY 1905-10
373. MODEL 1904 MOUNTED LEGGINGS, khaki canvas leggings,(see Armes Militaria Magazine No.20). Secured by a wrap around spiral canvas strap, approx. 11" high. Similar to the leather cavalry "puttees" but in canvas.
383. 1904/07 ARMY BLOUSE, khaki cotton service coat with 1902 buttons, gusset pockets, and pointed cuffs and a stand/fall collar. 1905 pattern Infantry crossed rifle insignia, "16" over "C" are on each side of the collar. VG condt
386. MODEL 1905 SHOVEL CASE W/SHOVEL, The case is stenciled with" crossed rifles, 28, & 5th sqd" and stamped R.I.A. & 1908. Shovel and case are in Good-VG condt
387. 1907 INFANTRY CANTEEN, rare last of the early style round canteens and which was made specifically for infantry use. . Khaki canvas covered and made with out the side sling loops but with a canvas "Y" strap with a belt hook sewn directly on to the canteen cover in back so it can be carried on the 1903 cartridge belt. The cover is marked R.I.A. 1910 and also stenciled MONT. with some other markings inked out. On the back is stenciled, 3 D CO. The canteen has a partial chain with a repro cork. About good to VG condt
388. 1905 BAYONET & 1905 SCABBARD, the bayonet blade has about 65% blue remaining and marked SA , 1908 with serial # 255503. The scabbard is the 1905 leather covered model with the early spring (Krag) type belt attachment, and it's dated 1907. Excl condt
390. MODEL 1904 FIRST AID POUCH, this is the first model, 2nd pattern pouch with two snap buttons in the front and groments in the canvas in the back to secure the brass wire belt attachment. The pouch has crossed cannons with the numbers 38, above and 101 below, stenciled on the back. VG cond
391. MODEL 1908-12 INFANTRY ARMY TROUSERS, early style, light OD cotton with lacings to the front, belted back. Good condt
458. 1902 STAR VENT CAMPAIGN HAT. Five pointed star vent hat that was issued between 1902 and until the 1911 "Montana Peak" hat came out in 1911. The Hat is as issued, regulation, and complete with original hat band and sweatband and a light blue Inf. Hat cord.. Stamped on the underside of the sweat band is the Contractor's name of "W F Pippy, contract June 8, 1906 as well as the soldier's name, "P F Moyer", written in ink. The edge of the brim is turned under and has two lines of stitching. The chin strap holes are reinforced with felt and the original chin strap is present. There is some moth tracking on the underside of the brim only which does not detract from the appearance of the hat, the rest of the hat is in very good to excellent condt.
588. MODEL 1902 US ARMY MARCHING SHOES, . Russet leather, ankle high with 8 grommets. Canvas lined with capped toes and leather soles and heels. There are is a makers name, Charls A Eaton Co and contract numbers on the lining by the ankle but they are difficult to read. The leather is soft and pliable with wear to the heels and the soles on each shoe apparently had worn area where a piece of leather was added to cover the area. Overall the shoes are in very good condition. Until the adoption of the heavy trench campaign "Pershing" type shoe in 1917 these shoes were the standard field campaign shoes of the early 1900's ie: Philippines, Mexican Border War, etc and are scarce
777. EARLY 1903 ROCK ISLAND RIFLE. Serial #87241, bbl date, 6-07, 30-06 caliber. This is a very scarce rifle as it is one of the earliest standard production Rock Island rifles that was originally manufactured with all new and correct period made components in the very first months of regular RI 1903 production in 1907. It’s not one of the put together rifles using mixed Rod bayonet or 30-03 parts. Rock Island arsenal waited until the Army finalized changes in the rifle from the using rod bayonet, to the knife bayonet, and then from .30-03 to .30-06. After final approval, any parts that were already made the arsenal assembled into complete rifles and issued them out. All these assembled rifles will have mixed period and dated parts. By January 1, 1907 most of those parts had been used up and rifles made after that were made with newly made parts with matching receiver and barrel dates. See C.S. Ferris & J. Beard, pg 25. This rifle has all the correct early 1907 dated components and has a high wood stock with no reinforcement bolts, a split rear sight base cut out, and a no sight groove hand guard, also the small rear sight wheel and the Platinum sight line on the rear sight leaf slider. The stock is in excellent condt. with a deep “CN” 1908 cartouche and an “S” stamp on the stock tip and a proof “P”. Overall the rifle is in about VG condition having a spotty faded blue/gray finish on the receiver which is common for these early Rock Islands rifles. The bore appears to be about Good. A very scarce to find early original manufactured R.I. 1903 rifle that has not been assembled from stored parts and especially one that was made in the very first months of normal production. a very rare early pre 1907 prototype leather sling stamped in two places, “Rock Island” and with 1905 dates. It’s not recommended to shoot these low serial number 1903 rifles.
601. SAW to 1910 shelter half/ blanket roll. Scarce shelter half (tent) of the pattern that was manufactured mid 1898 through 1910 in drab (khaki) color and with the Williams 1898 patent grommets. The shelter is marked Schuylkill Arsenal QMD 1902, and has crossed sabers with 7th and AD@ ink stamped on it . There are some period repairs/patches on it as well as a number of paint splatters but overall it is still in VG condt. It is complete with it>s original two piece tent pole, four pegs and the tent rope. The brass adjuster on the rope has a patent date of Nov, 30, 80. It also has it=s four original Williams patent straps with the brass buckles on them. The straps were also used to secure the shelter half when it was rolled up in a A horseshoe roll and carried over the shoulder. This is as complete an issue shelter half grouping as you can find.
619. 1901 COLT REVOLVER, COLT 1894 US ARMY REVOLVER, stamped Colt DA 38 on the barrel and US Army Model 1901 on the bottom of the grip. Serial # 197149. R.A.C. is stamped on the cylinder and on the frame along with AKSM@ on the side of the grip. Has #643 lanyard on it. Value not including the lanyard,
620. US ARMY 38 REVOLVER HOLSTER . Brown leather, dated 1907 with inspector stamps. Made for 38 Long Colt 1894 pattern revolver. Excl condt.
631. MODEL 1903 CARTRIDGE BELT SUSPENDERS. 1st pattern 1903 Mills cartridge belt suspenders. These are very early made 1903 suspenders as they were produced before the patent date was applied to the metal tips of the suspenders. They are in mint, un-used condt.
643. 1903 MODEL REVOLVER/PISTOL LANYARD. Scare early lanyard dated 1903, excl condt
385. MODEL 1903 CARTRIDGE BELT. A first pattern belt manufactured by Russell. The belt has rimless eagle button snaps and is made without “puckered" pockets. The later 2nd pattern M1903 belts had the bottom of the pockets gathered, (puckered) to help prevent the point of the later adopted 30-06 bullet from wearing through the material. The female closer snap on the button has the patent date of Sept. 1, 96. The belt is in VG condt
Rick, why does your rifle has a polished bolt?
Rick the Librarian
12-29-2014, 05:17
Doesn't look polished to me - shiny, maybe.
By polished I was referring to non-blued. That's what the bolt itself looks like, not speaking of the bolt handle?
Rick, On your 16K Rock Island rifle, do you have the early rear sight ladder without the top rib and the slide with the square left side ?
Rick the Librarian
12-29-2014, 08:08
Nope, I believe the later one.
ridgerunner
12-30-2014, 07:06
You gentlemen have some beautiful rifles, and museum quality displays. Amazing. And on top of everything else, it looks like you live in some beautiful country Fred. Many thanks to you all for sharing your photos.
May you all have a very prosperous, healthy and happy 2015.
May you all have a very prosperous, healthy and happy 2015.
Thank you ridgerunner and may you have the same, ray
Thanks Ridgerunner! I'm glad you like this interesting thread too! Yes, the countryside around the house is nice. I can hardly wait until spring comes back.
One thing I forgot to mention and which is an interesting feature on the earlier 03 I have and that is, not only is it assembled with stored Rod Bayonet and 30-03 parts, but it also makes use of Krag rifle parts in that it has an altered Krag butt plate on it. The Krag plates have smaller dia. doors and the door is stamped with assembly numbers. These altered Krag plates are found on some of the other early 03 parts assembled rifles. This is also mentioned in the "Springfield Model 1903 Service Rifle" by John Beard and C.S. Ferris. Ray
http://i60.tinypic.com/opwp42.jpg
Ray, if you notice, there is no evidence of any rubbing on the underside of your trap from Krag cleaning Rod sections. This seems to suggest that the butt plate was originally used on your 03 and was never used or salvaged off of a Krag before. Unless the plate was refinished before being mounted on the 03 that is. Pretty neat!
I'm curious as to whether or not the butt plate is the same size as other 1903 butt plates or is just a bit bigger, in between a Krag and a normal 1903 plate. When I reduced the size of the Krag butt plate that I got from John to fit the butt of the original Rod Bayonet stock, it was still too large for a later 1903 stock. When a plate from any of my other 03's was put on the Rod Bayonet stock, the were all too small. This suggests to me that maybe the RB stocks were just a bit larger in the butt than the later 1903's. I wonder...?
Fred, I took the butt plate off of my Model 96 Krag and put it on the above 03. The plate when on my 03 rifle is almost 1/8" longer at the toe/bottom. In regard to your observation of no wear on it or if refinished. It does not display either so it may be either a NOS Krag part taken from surplus stock and altered or was made originally as it is for the RB/03. Ray
Ray, how does your but plate measure against another 03 but plate?
The shortened Krag plate I have fits both of my early 1903's correctly. Ray
Oh my god, disregard everything. It's not a Krag plate. It's a correct 03 plate for the rifle. Not a smaller door. I thought it was a Krag plate because of the assembly stamps on it so never even paid attention to the size. The book says some 03 plates have those assembly numbers, but it's rare though. Ray
Early butt plate I recon. And it hasn't a small door? Interesting!
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.