Demonstrating my lack of competance...

[glindes]

...I'm not exactly clear what it takes to be designated "A1" as in M1903A1. It can't simply be the "C" stock. The weapon on my mind is SA 1395420 (thread below). I believe in in the serial # range for the 1903A1.

Please direct me to a reference to help cure my "competence" issue. Geoff

[jgaynor]

Well follow this link to a Download of TM 9-1270 http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerdog/generalstorage/dutchmansmanuals/TM9-1270-1903-Springfield.pdf

Scroll down to page 4 and start reading Section 2. General.

As far as the Army was concerned an M1903 with a pistol grip stock (any 03) was an M1903A1.

It could be argued that a rifle manufactured before the existence of the "C" stock is not "an original" A1. Its not likely the army would have cared about the distinction.
After WW1 ordnance decided that a pistol grip stock was the way to go. They experimented with three different profiles A, B and C finally adopting the "C".

[Randy A]

It was only an A1 if it was put into service in a C or scant stock. Due to the extremely large quantity of the old S (straight) stocks (and S stock blanks) most during that time period were turned out wearing the S stock even though the A1 modification had been approved. Actual original 1903A1s are rare but the 1903A1 National Match (in a C stock) that was being turned out at the same time is not as rare. Many people think that rifles produced as of the 1903A1 approval date, 1928 or29 I think, are A1's.... not the case. Post some pics, let's see it.

[glindes]

jgaynor Wow! Thanks for the TM Manual link; I saved it. Sometimes I just need to know. You confirmed some of the fragments I've read about. Thanks --Geoff

[glindes]

It was only an A1 if it was put into service in a C or scant stock. Due to the extremely large quantity of the old S (straight) stocks (and S stock blanks) most during that time period were turned out wearing the S stock even though the A1 modification had been approved. Actual original 1903A1s are rare but the 1903A1 National Match (in a C stock) that was being turned out at the same time is not as rare. Many people think that rifles produced as of the 1903A1 approval date, 1928 or29 I think, are A1's.... not the case. Post some pics, let's see it.

Randy A The 03 was given to my dad in Sporterized condition in the very early 70's. The stock was cut off. NO metal was tampered with. Pop "restored" it back then with what I believe is (was) a new spare "S" stock and surplus stock hardware hardware likely from Numrich Arms. I don't recall if the cut-off stock had pistol grip. I looks & shoot just fine. I won't re-restore it. Thanks, Geoff

[glindes]

It was only an A1 if it was put into service in a C or scant stock. Due to the extremely large quantity of the old S (straight) stocks (and S stock blanks) most during that time period were turned out wearing the S stock even though the A1 modification had been approved. Actual original 1903A1s are rare but the 1903A1 National Match (in a C stock) that was being turned out at the same time is not as rare. Many people think that rifles produced as of the 1903A1 approval date, 1928 or29 I think, are A1's.... not the case. Post some pics, let's see it.

the barrel date is SA 9-31 Geoff

[Col. Colt]

I think, if an Ordnance Department Armorer was asked specifically to go out and pull an M1903A1 from the rack and issue it, he would not even be looking at barrel dates.

He would look at the stock, and if it had a "C" or a "Scant" stock on it, he would issue it! The change in stock was a physical, functional thing, not a cutoff date.

How would anyone know which serial numbers came with C stocks??
CC

[Art]

It was only an A1 if it was put into service in a C or scant stock. Due to the extremely large quantity of the old S (straight) stocks (and S stock blanks) most during that time period were turned out wearing the S stock even though the A1 modification had been approved. Actual original 1903A1s are rare but the 1903A1 National Match (in a C stock) that was being turned out at the same time is not as rare. Many people think that rifles produced as of the 1903A1 approval date, 1928 or29 I think, are A1's.... not the case. Post some pics, let's see it.

Very few M1903 rifles were put into service with a "C" stock, the vast majority of "C" stocks were put on rifles during overhaul. The "C" stock was adopted in 1928 the end of production of the M1903 service rifle (production of the scratch build M1903 service rifles ended for all practical purposes about 1929,) and most rifles built with a "C" stock were for the matches and the majority were for civilian sales. The Army literature including the TM above is clear, once a "C" stock is put on a rifle it becomes an M1903A1.

A lot of late M1903 rifles were built using parts salvaged from low number rifles that had their receivers scrapped assembled onto spare receivers, the government was more frugal then. I have one of these rifles in the one million three hundred thousand range (early to mid. 1929.). The other parts range from the 1919 dated Avis barrel to other parts that go back as far as 1914. It has a "K" marked "C" stock from WWII and is indeed an M1903A1. When it was assembled onto the new receiver....who knows.

Another example of this thinking is the M14E1/A1. An M14 becomes an MK14E1 or A1 with a stock change and a selector switch stuck on it. Once that stuff is taken off it becomes again a plain old M14. People tend to ascribe much more consistency and order to the military nomenclature and procurement system than actually exists, just a little insight from an old ordnance guy.

Short answer, any M1903 rifle with a "C" stock is a Model 1903 A1. That is indeed the only difference.

[John Beard]

...I'm not exactly clear what it takes to be designated "A1" as in M1903A1. It can't simply be the "C" stock. The weapon on my mind is SA 1395420 (thread below). I believe in in the serial # range for the 1903A1.

Please direct me to a reference to help cure my "competence" issue. Geoff

Unless your rifle, SA S/N 1395420, was assembled as a National Match or DCM sales rifle, it was not originally assembled as a M1903A1. It was used to replace the barreled receiver of a low number rifle turned in for overhaul. As Art stated above, your rifle would have been assembled using mixed parts salvaged from earlier rifles, including straight-grip Type S stocks. And as a matter of note, it would not necessarily have been assembled at Springfield, but could have been assembled at any arsenal or depot in the Ordnance system.

Hope this helps.

J.B.

p.s.,

In the beginning, we all demonstrated a lack of competence! We invite you to join us and overcome!