M1 carbine use on Guadalcanal?

[Chuck Russell]

In the book "They Were Ready. The 164th Infantry in the Pacific War, 1942 - 1945" there is a statement that on the night of the 24-25 October 1942, Seabees were the last line of defense for the airfield. They were armed with pistols and M1 carbines. I was wondering if anybody has any documented proof that the M1 carbine was issued and in use that early on Guadalcanal. I would think that pistols and M1903 rifles would be more likely weapons in the Seabees hands.

[SPEEDGUNNER]

I don't think that Garands even appeared on Guadalcanal until the Army arrived to relieve the Marines.

[Tuna]

Speedgunner is right. There were no carbines or M1 Garands on Guadalcanal till the Army came ashore. The first use of the carbine in combat would be during Operation Torch in North Africa. The Marines were treated as second best back then and the Army got all the good stuff first.

[PhillipM]

Seebeas were not Marines

[Chuck Russell]

The 164th Infantry received M1 rifles while training at Camp Claiborne, LA in 1941 prior to Pearl Harbor. I've always wondered if any were in gas trap configuration.

[joem]

Might have been M17's also.

[Tuna]

No the Seebee are not Marines but like Marines are part of the Navy and since the Army always has felt the Navy was secondary to them they did not get carbines or M1's till later as the Army controlled there distribution.

[Sunray]

"...The Marines were treated as second best..." More by the Navy Dept. and their own higher-ups than anybody else. M1 Rifle wasn't adopted by the USMC until the Fall of '42.
"...in gas trap configuration..." Gone before The Rifle was in full production.

[emmagee1917]

The Marines on Guadalcanal had Reising model 50 and 55s SMGs ( pictures exist ) and it is rumored that model 60s were there , too ( though no pictures exist AFAIK ). Being how the 60 is the long barreled semi-auto version of the 50 , perhaps the Seabees are the source of the 60 sighting rumors and the 60s the source of the carbine rumor ?
Chris

[firstflabn]

Can Do!, author Huie's semi-official Seabee history, quotes extensively from an account by the CO of the 6th NCB, Commander Joseph P. Blundon. According to Rottman, the 6th was the only NCB on Guadalcanal until early Nov 42. The 6th sailed from SF on Jul 21. Here's what Blundon had to say about his battalion's early days:

The men in our battalion had not been together more
than ten days before we left the States. We had been given
our medical shots, a little hasty military indoctrination, and
then we had been formed into a battalion and rushed to the
South Pacific. We didn't kid ourselves. We weren't a trained
military organization; we were just 1100 partially armed
civilians. We had one '03 rifle for each two men. That was
all that could be spared us.

Without a footnote citing a period document, I would dismiss the carbine claim entirely. The author may have understood that Seabee units later were close to 100% equipped with carbines and leapt to an unsupported conclusion.

Good eye by the OP. Trust but verify.

[Tuna]

"...The Marines were treated as second best..." More by the Navy Dept. and their own higher-ups than anybody else. M1 Rifle wasn't adopted by the USMC until the Fall of '42.
"...in gas trap configuration..." Gone before The Rifle was in full production.

They would have adopted the M1 Garand sooner IF they had been given the chance to have it and it wasn't the higher ups in the Navy. It was the Army refusing to release it to them. That is why they had to use the Johnson rifle and were very surprised by it being as good as it was. If it had been a better bayonet platform they very well may have kept the Johnson but the thin barrel didn't support use of a bayonet very well.

[firstflabn]

They would have adopted the M1 Garand sooner IF they had been given the chance to have it and it wasn't the higher ups in the Navy. It was the Army refusing to release it to them.

That requires a little support.

[kb466]

Well, here is a little circumstantial support for the idea that the Seabees might have had carbines on Guadalcanal. I own an early Inland carbine-- 20951 with a 7-42 barrel excellent original condition. It came from the estate of either a "Marine officer" or a "Seabee officer". I believe that he was a Seabee officer because the estate also had a M1911A1 with clear plexiglass grips where the officer had placed photos of his wife-- I figured it was more likely a Seabee who would do this rather than a Marine. Anyway, here is evidence of an early carbine in the hands of a Seabee officer out in the Pacific. I can't say this is direct evidence of use on Guadalcanal, but it is possible date-wise-- just saying for what it's worth....
Bill M.

[Tuna]

No it is not. The man could have had that issued anytime after the Army landed on the island or later on when the Navy finally got the new weapons released to them. The weapons came from distribution points in the country and when an order came in the weapons were shipped out. There are no records of when a certain carbine came in and when it was finally shipped out to a unit. Early carbines very well could have been sitting on the bottom of the pile for quite awhile before being shipped out and that does make sense as a large order from the Navy could have emptied a distribution center of all their carbines as they would have taken many thousands at a time.

[emmagee1917]

Well , there WERE carbines on Guadalcanal , but the question was if they were issued to the Seabees . My good friend , Jim , was there and he says a FEW officers in the Marines had them for field trials . When they were pulled of of the island , the carbines were sent back in for examination . So I don't think any would have been CB issued at that time . This is why I thought maybe Reising Model 60s.
Chris

[tmark]

I know they were used on Okinawa. I have a pic of my Uncle in a foxhole in Okinawa during WWII posing with a carbine. He worked on B-29s as a mechanic.

[Southron]

Inland delivered their first production M-1 Carbines in June of 1942-so it is theoretically possible some carbines were used on Guadalcanal. If any were used on the island, there should be pictures in the National Archives of some of the troops (or Seabees) armed with carbines.

[Johnny P]

The 164th Infantry received M1 rifles while training at Camp Claiborne, LA in 1941 prior to Pearl Harbor. I've always wondered if any were in gas trap configuration.

I have a photo of Company K, 159th Infantry, California National Guard at the 4th Army maneuvers, Grand Mound, Washington, in 1940. Every man armed with a rifle has a gas trap Garand.

[jsaviano]

My Dad's Seabee unit (90th NCB) was issued carbines in 1943 I believe

[Tuna]

Inlands total production through June of 1942 was 382 carbines. Total through August 1942 when the battle for Guadalcanal started was 11708. All of these were taken under control of the Army. These would have been used by them with none left for any other branch.

[firstflabn]

Total through August 1942 when the battle for Guadalcanal started was 11708.

That's a bit of a strawman. Unless you're talking pipe tobacco for MacArthur or salve for Halsey's skin ailment, chances are virtually nil that any item made it half way around the world from the factory to an active theater in a few weeks - especially so in the desperate days of 1942 where shipping was frequently the greatest constraint. No amazon.com for troopies in those days.

As to the Guadalcanal carbine anecdotes of other posters: am I the only one who understands that Guadalcanal was occupied continuously from Aug 7, '42 'til at least June '45? As the rollup of SW Pacific bases gathered steam, the garrison on Guadalcanal dropped from about 20,000 in March '45 to just under 5,000 by the end of June. On the latter date, a report shows more carbines on the island than personnel. Without a date, such stories are useless in answering our trivia question (that expanded from the OP's question about action in Oct '42).

As to questions about when the marines or navy got this or that piece of equipment, unsourced claims are similarly useless, no matter how boldly asserted.

[Art]

My old daddy was a SeaBee who went in 1n 1943. He said training consisted of Navy Boot Camp after which they were handed off to the Marines for weapons familiarization. From what he said he left the Marines familiar with everything but proficient with nothing. Dad's personal weapon on Samar was a shotgun, but the weapon he used the most was the 4.2" mortar he helped crew. He said he was very happy that they never had to move it after installation. The second half of Huie's history of the SeaBees "From Omaha to Okinawa" specifically mentions a SeaBee on Peleliu who was armed with an M1 Carbine who swapped it for an '03 when it didn't have the desired effect on a Japanese he had to finish off with a knife.

As far as an ex SeaBee having an early M1 Carbine, he could have acquired it at any time in the war or afterwards and since there seems to be dispute as to whether he was a Marine or a SeaBee it might not apply at all. However, knowing the WWII SeaBee talent for "midnight requisitions" my money would be on the fellow having been a SeaBee if the carbine was indeed a bring back.

I personally find it doubtful that any SeaBees would have been issued an M1 Carbine in 1942 but anything is possible. When I hear stories like this though I am reminded of my favorite uncle's comment that after 50 years or so history starts to become legendary.

[TDP0311]

To try to clear the air (but likely muddy the water) about all of this, there are legitimate reasons why the Marines of the 1st Marine Division stormed ashore with their trusty Oh-Three's, and none of them are due to army bias. First off, 1MarDiv didn't just ship out and head straight to the Canal, they were deployed since very early 42 and took the weapons they had with them. With early logistics, there was no chance for them to be equipped with Garands until after the battle.

Also, the myth that early Garands and Carbines went strictly to the army is dispelled by the SRS data. there were many pre 12/7/41 Garands given to the Marines, as Congress specifically ordered in mid 1941 for the Marines to be given them immediately (this was an issue after the Marines had preferred the 1903 in the late 30s, and also been loyal to Johnson). This is thoroughly covered with much insight by Canfield in "The M1 Garand Rifle." As for the SRS data, there are confirmed Carbines going to the Marines from as low as the 4 digits, and there are several Carbine serial numbers confirmed to the Raiders near the 20k range. The Garands are the same way, with a particular density of USMC hits in the early 1941 range. Two of these rifles, 196162 and 208825, showed up on a Marine squad leader's EDL from Okinawa (featured in the GCA several times).

Yes, the Marines were definitely stubborn about giving up their beloved 1903, and the short sightedness of that decision was painfully apparent when they had hordes of Japanese charging them from jungles just 100 yards out on the Canal, but had the 1st Marine Division not been deployed so very early in the war, they would have gone in armed with different weapons.

[southfork]

My Dad was a Marine Lt (and later Captain) with the 1st Marine Division who got to Guadacanal in August 1943. He brought with him his Marine-issued Inland M1 Carbine, sn 238546. There were still hostilities on Quadacanal from time to time in 1943 and 1944, and he used his carbine some there. He carried that Inland carbine in the invasion of Vella La Vella in September '43 when a Marine platoon and 3 marine officers were temporarily assigned to the 3rd New Zeeland Army Division. Back with the 1st marine Division, he carried the Inland on New Caladonia and again on Guadacanal. He also carried in the invasion of Peleliu in 1944, and again in the Battle of Okinawa in early 1945. He had to leave Inland carbine sn 238546 at the beach/dock when he caught a boat out of Okinawa in July 1945, and headed for Camp La Jeune NC. All this info from his war-time journal.

[TDP0311]

Awesome story southfork, thanks for sharing! If I ever run across that serial number, I'll definitely get in touch!

[hkp7fan]

"The .30 Caliber Carbine. We never saw this nice little weapon on Guadalcanal, though we had been hearing of it for more than a year..."

LTC John George, "Shots Fired in Anger", p 393

[emmagee1917]

" The first carbines I saw were on Guadalcanal . Some of the officers had one , but not many . " Jim Campbell , Marine raider and good friend . I'll see him this weekend and confirm .
He was in the initial landing and stayed until they were relieved a few months later .
Chris

[Chuck Russell]

Lt. Col. Russel P. Reeder talked to 5th and 7th Regiment Marines and soldiers of the 164th Infantry after the Guadalcanal campaign. These interviews were included in a paperback sized pamphlet, "Fighting on Guadalcanal", published by the GPO in 1943. Among the comments from a conference with 3, 2nd Lt.s and 5 NCO's of 2nd Battalion, 7th Marines: "The Thompson sub-machine gun or carbine is needed, as they execute their [Japs] attacks en masse. We understand the carbine will have more penetrating power than the Thompson."
This conference concluded with these statements: "Be mean and kill 'em. Kill 'em dead. Our motto in this Platoon is 'No prisoners.' "