New (to me) RIA M1903 #278,759

[Rick the Librarian]

I was helping a guy I met on the Internet go through a gun collection and he had a Rock Island that was going to be part of the deal. I bought it for $800 plus shipping.

It is one of the "transitional" Rock Islands made when the forging method was changed. Although in the "low" range, John Beard said it one of those which received the later heat-treating method.

The serial number is 278,759 and it appears to be correct/original in most respects. It has a 5-18 RIA barrel with a C104 steel lot code for you who are keeping score.

The stock is beautiful. On the left side, the wood has a quarter-sawn grain with some slight tiger-striping; on the right side, it has sort of a swirled grain which isn't shown well in the pictures. However, the stock has been repaired in two places.

The bolt is an original RIo and all other parts appear to be original.

Got this to fill the "hole" for a WWI RIA.

http://www.fototime.com/87A6A6279D18E3C/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/0E89AFC98DA3999/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/FACB7B10CD87F98/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/106F8EC7324B9B2/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/68ECD5CEFA84202/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/7B67F5B85985251/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/D6368F051D4D402/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/C7E54F0F416259D/standard.jpg

[bobinmich]

Beautiful rifle! Interesting stock repairs! Thanks for sharing!

[Fred]

That's a Really Nice rifle that would've been tough to pass up for more than what you paid. I like it! Even has the R.I. rear sight leaf. Way to go! Got any more pictures of it?

[Rick the Librarian]

Anything in particular you want to see?

[robh5]

That's a Really Nice rifle that would've been tough to pass up for more than what you paid. I like it! Even has the R.I. rear sight leaf. Way to go! Got any more pictures of it?
How can you tell a R.I. sight leaf from a S.A. one? Thanks.

[Rick the Librarian]

The bases on the "7"s are straight on RIA '03s; those Springfield rear sights have curved bases.

[robh5]

The bases on the "7"s are straight on RIA '03s; those Springfield rear sights have curved bases.
Just looked at my SA and RIA 03's. By "bases" do you mean the leg of the "7"? If so I have a RIA sight on my SA, and a SA on my RIA. Learning is fun!

[bruce]

Beautiful rifle. Well worth every dime you paid. Would have gladly bought it myself. Sincerely. bruce.

[Rick the Librarian]

Yes, the leg or base of the 7s on the rear sight leaf - "straight" = RIA; "curved" = SA.

[twh]

Rick are you sure about the 7 issue? Looking at the pictures of your sight leaf it looks like the base of the 7 is curved.

[Rick the Librarian]

Got the rifle right in front of me and it has "straight" 7s. Might be the angle of the photograph, although the 7s also look straight to me.

[Kragrifle]

Would love to see photos!

[RCS]

There might be one exception to the straight 7 for Rock Island and the curved 7 for Springfield

I have two rear sight leafs (D28372)

the first one is with a straight 7, without the top notch, polished face and small R stamp on the right bottom above the pin hole

second rear sight leaf also a straight 7, without top notch, parkerized finish on face, no stamps/markings but a square rib on the top rear

[Jeff L]

Nice one.

[Fred]

There might be one exception to the straight 7 for Rock Island and the curved 7 for Springfield

I have two rear sight leafs (D28372)

the first one is with a straight 7, without the top notch, polished face and small R stamp on the right bottom above the pin hole

second rear sight leaf also a straight 7, without top notch, parkerized finish on face, no stamps/markings but a square rib on the top rear

If that first sight was made by Remington, then it has the Rock Island type 7 because Remington was using Rock Island Arsenal's machinery to make their 1903's.

[RCS]

that's right Fred and maybe the second one with the square top rib too

[Kurt]

Nice Rifle Rick!

Kurt

[John Beard]

There might be one exception to the straight 7 for Rock Island and the curved 7 for Springfield

I have two rear sight leafs (D28372)

the first one is with a straight 7, without the top notch, polished face and small R stamp on the right bottom above the pin hole

second rear sight leaf also a straight 7, without top notch, parkerized finish on face, no stamps/markings but a square rib on the top rear

I concur with Fred.

The first leaf was made by Remington. The second leaf was made by Perry Point.

Hope this helps.

J.B.

[tom gray]

Rick
Nice rifle. I would have bought it. There are still nice ones out there waiting.
Tom

[Reptile46]

On the subject of RIA 1903s, I have one clearly marked on the receiver as Rock Island Arsenal with a serial number in the 4xxxxx range. I replaced the original stock with a CMP C stock for aesthetics, but kept the original. Can anyone clarify the RIA serial number range and dates for the 1903?

[Rick the Librarian]

On the subject of RIA 1903s, I have one clearly marked on the receiver as Rock Island Arsenal with a serial number in the 4xxxxx range. I replaced the original stock with a CMP C stock for aesthetics, but kept the original. Can anyone clarify the RIA serial number range and dates for the 1903?

Giving only ONE number, it is a little hard. Can you provide at least the next two digits?

Rock Island receivers in the 400,000 range were manufactured shortly before the production of major RIA parts was halted in mid-1919. Nearly all of them were passed along as spare parts to Springfield Armory in the mid-1920s and assembled partially with Springfield parts.

Would you provide some more details (and hopefully, pictures) of your rifle?

[Reptile46]

Sorry, the full serial number is 429937. I'll post pictures this evening.
The barrel has a circled "S" on the left side just in front of the receiver. Based on comments earlier in this thread, the rear sight is RIA ("straight" 7).
The only other distinguishing feature is that the stamp on the receiver is a "light strike" at the top, but a full, crisp imprint of ROCK ISLAND ARSENAL and the serial number.
More later and thanks.

[Rick the Librarian]

Is there a month/year date aft of the front sight? Manufacturer's initials?

[Reptile46]

Here are photos:30113
3011430115

[Reptile46]

Nothing on the barrel. Just a 2 on the front sight blade. The original stock and the pinned trigger group make me think this might be a Greek return.
Here are more photos:
30116301173011830119

[Rick the Librarian]

The "circle S stamp indicates that part is a Sedgely part.

Nothing on the TOP of the barrel just aft of the front sight? Something typical might be:

SA
(flaming grenade)
7-28

If not the barrel may have been a modified machine gun barrel and the rifle may have been a Sedgely "piece-together"

The serial number is about 750 numbers below the highest certified RIA serial number noted, 430,742.

[Reptile46]

I'm familiar with the barrel markings and this one is unmarked, except for the Sedgley "S". When I switched out the stock nothing stood out in the way of markings. The safety is marked "R". The stacking swivel is marked "RS". The underside of the bolt handle is marked "R". When I put a finish on the new stock I'll do a close check of everything. Thanks for your comments.

[Rick the Librarian]

It appears to be a Sedgely "put-together". They often used non-M1903 parts. I usually see low-numbered SA and RIA receivers in such rifles, but I don't remember seeing a very high numbered RIA receiver on one before.

[BEAR]

[QUOTE=Rick the Librarian;405982]

It is one of the "transitional" Rock Islands made when the forging method was changed. Although in the "low" range, John Beard said it one of those which received the later heat-treating method.

The serial number is 278,759 and it appears to be correct/original in most respects. It has a 5-18 RIA barrel with a C104 steel lot code for you who are keeping score.

Please explain "transitional" and give serial number range of "transitional" rifles. My understanding of the change over for RIA was very specific at SN# 285507 but SA was squishy on their change over SN#.

[Reptile46]

It appears to be a Sedgely "put-together". They often used non-M1903 parts. I usually see low-numbered SA and RIA receivers in such rifles, but I don't remember seeing a very high numbered RIA receiver on one before.

Thanks for the information. I'll do a web search to learn more about the "put-togethers".

[Rick the Librarian]

Bear, there were somewhere in the range of 269,000 to 285,000 in which some were heat treated the new method and some weren't. Several thousand in this range were destroyed.

If you have C.S. Ferris' boo on the Rock Island, I believe he has a whole chapter (or most of one) on this subject and can explain it better than I can.

[Fred]

Leading up to the final decision to start double heat treating all receivers at Rock Island Arsenal, there were a lot of receivers that were double heat treated for testing. Many were used up in the testing and all that remained were tested with a precision instrument for strength. Those that didn't pass were scrapped. What was left were about 5,000 receivers that were in fact double heat treated and that were in the otherwise "single heat treat serial number range". These receivers were mounted with barrels in 1918 and which were in turn assembled into complete rifles. John Beard can explain it all better than I can.
I have one of those Rock Island rifles that is serial number 268563. It has a R.I.A. barrel date of 7-18. According to John Beard, my "low number rifle" most certainly has a double heat treated receiver. It's my opinion that this particular rifle never made it over to Europe in time for the war. If it eventually did go to Europe, it certainly didn't see any hard field time.
Rick has Apparently TWO such rifles now..
Here are some photo's of mine, which appears to be unaltered...


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockIsland6_zpse09e1469.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockIsland6_zpse09e1469.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockIsland12_zpse0813acf.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockIsland12_zpse0813acf.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockIsland20_zps9ff5869a.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockIsland20_zps9ff5869a.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockIsland5_zps91812c09.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockIsland5_zps91812c09.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockIsland19_zps3bb18fd1.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockIsland19_zps3bb18fd1.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockIsland2_zps295dedc9.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockIsland2_zps295dedc9.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockIsland14_zps94935a58.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockIsland14_zps94935a58.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockIsland4_zpsf7ae3bd2.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockIsland4_zpsf7ae3bd2.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockIsland9_zps0ed1cfc1.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockIsland9_zps0ed1cfc1.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockIsland13_zpsa522129a.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockIsland13_zpsa522129a.jpg.html)

[BEAR]

Thanks Rick and Fred.
I have C.S. Ferris' 1992 book but I don't recall any information on transitional rifles. Didn't he and our resident expert, John Beard write a newer book on the same subject?

[John Beard]

When the heat treating problem erupted in January, 1918, Rock Island Arsenal had 5,000 receivers finish machined and awaiting heat treatment. When the new double heat treatment process was finally worked out shortly thereafter and new heat treating furnaces were installed, those 5,000 receivers received the new double heat treatment. All those receivers were spread over the serial range from approximately S/N 269506 through S/N 285506, but no records were kept of specific serial numbers. Rock Island Arsenal resumed receiver machining in May, 1918, beginning with S/N 285507, which is accepted as the official beginning of high number production.

During the interim while receiver production was suspended, Rock Island Arsenal switched over to Parkerizing as the final finish for most rifle parts, including the barrel and receiver. The aforementioned 5,000 "low number" double heat treated receivers received the new Parkerized finish and may be identified by the presence of that peculiar Rock Island Arsenal parkerized finish and a mid-1918 or later barrel date. Rick's rifle has that peculiar finish and barrel date.

Hope this helps.

J.B.

[John Beard]

Hey Fred,

Can you oblige us with a picture of the encircled "P" proof mark on your rifle?

Thanks!

J.B.

[Rick the Librarian]

FWIW, here's another "transition" RIA, my 272,505. I replaced the stock, which I now regret, but perhaps the metal will be of some interest:

http://www.fototime.com/FCC3640EAF9E9AF/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/5C98BF7B6209B90/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/9605DF2CDEA763B/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/6A78CCA7F2C78CC/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/9D686CF45DD3C97/standard.jpg

[Fred]

The aforementioned 5,000 "low number" double heat treated receivers received the new Parkerized finish and may be identified by the presence of that peculiar Rock Island Arsenal parkerized finish and a mid-1918 or later barrel date. Rick's rifle has that peculiar finish and barrel date.

Hope this helps.

J.B.

Ricks fits the bill perfectly. As for my rifle, it doesn't have the Rock Island Parkerizing. What it does have is a finish that is perplexing. It has a Springfield rear sight leaf and a Springfield Firing Proof stamp, which is a Block circle P and not the Script P that Rock Island used.
If John would like to, he can go into the specific finish on the rifle.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockI8_zps8b702a74.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockI8_zps8b702a74.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockI5_zps0cf39e24.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockI5_zps0cf39e24.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss24_zps598c95d1.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss24_zps598c95d1.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/RockI4_zps68f8198f.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/RockI4_zps68f8198f.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss22_zps6214f80d.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss22_zps6214f80d.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss21_zps7564878c.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss21_zps7564878c.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss23_zpsb44c6033.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss23_zpsb44c6033.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss20_zpsbd6bda8b.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss20_zpsbd6bda8b.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss14_zps4aee486b.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss14_zps4aee486b.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/ss9_zps3b13f59c.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/ss9_zps3b13f59c.jpg.html)

[BEAR]

Thank you John, I now know some more 03 lore.

Fred, are you ever going to patent that "rifle post". Someone's gonna steal it and sell it to the hungry masses.

[ncblksmth1]

Great rifle.

Curious about the repair on the left side of the receiver. Would that be for a Warner Swazye scope mount?

[Fred]

Thank you John, I now know some more 03 lore.

Fred, are you ever going to patent that "rifle post". Someone's gonna steal it and sell it to the hungry masses.

Bear, all of the posts are special in that on any given morning, I often come outside to find another beautiful rifle perched upon one. The rifles appear out of nowhere and seem to come hither through a Time Portal or something. Though the fencing is now gone, I fear that should I ever pull the posts out of the ground, no more rifles will appear.

[BEAR]

Interesting ....... I wonder if the same thing happens with Rick's "magic Afghan". :icon_rabbit:

[Kurt]

Fred appears to have a stake in his guns, Rick's Afghan may have been mis-identified and is in fact a magic carpet, think Steppenwolf...:)

[Reptile46]

It appears to be a Sedgely "put-together". They often used non-M1903 parts. I usually see low-numbered SA and RIA receivers in such rifles, but I don't remember seeing a very high numbered RIA receiver on one before.
I saw a reference on line to one in the 387XXX range with the same markings or lack of them on the barrel. I've looked at the rifle with the stock off and there are more markings that may be informative. First, the circled "S" is on the left rear of rear sight band, not on the barrel. The barrel has a proof "P" stamped on the bottom about 14" from the muzzle. About 4" further back are a "D" and a "7" separated by a tool mark that could be a "1". Just in front of the rear sight band is a "B". The underside of the rear sight band has an "X", a "K" and a "C". The top of the trigger has a "K". Overall the machining of the receiver is pretty rough. I suspect most of these are unknown inspection marks, but perhaps one or more can be linked to a manufacturer.

[the_1st_sgt]

So, other than the bbl dates and the (what looks like) bluish looking Parkerizing are there any other unique markings on the receiver that would identify it as a DHT