1903 USMC WWI Scope Question

[Smokeeaterpilot]

A friend of mine has a Winchester A5 Scope that came off a 1903 (I'm assuming WWI sniper)

Is there anyway to track down the rifle?

I know it's like looking for a need in a hayfield (I can't think of a more impossible task)

Has anyone done a similar research endeavor?

The serial number on the scope is 612,819.

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj530/Smokeeaterpilot/USMC%20Winchester%20A5%20Scope/1_zpswibciawz.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/Smokeeaterpilot/media/USMC%20Winchester%20A5%20Scope/1_zpswibciawz.jpg.html)

I already know how impossible this may seem. But I figured I have nothing to lose.

Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

[Rick the Librarian]

My uncle was in the Marines in WWI and was assigned M1903 #165617 - which, as you can see, could have been either a Springfield or Rock Island - I'm guessing a RIA. I still keep sort of a look out for it, but needless to say, haven't seen it. I have a hunch it is a RIA.

[Promo]

These are two close rifle serials from the SRS:
611365SGS 071530USMC - NICARAGUA
612940SGS 120125LITTLE ROCK AIR INT DEP TO RIA

Very nice can! Wish it was mine! If your friend wants to sell it, please let me know.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I have been looking for any one of them (the rifles) for many years with little success. I have found several, but only one with its scope. Pvt Harry S. Smith was one of the first 50 snipers picked for training at OSD. He was in the first of three classes.

Is the scope for sale?

Virtually none of the original 1100 rifles have been discovered, and I was told they were destroyed after the scopes were removed for storage. I find this odd, since they represented 2% of the total number of 1903's owned by the Corps, and very few of them (about 120 to 150), were ever used in combat, where th attrition rate was severe.

jt

[Liam]

I love a good mystery. And yours above, Jim, is an especially intriguing one.

[Smokeeaterpilot]

I have been looking for any one of them (the rifles) for many years with little success. I have found several, but only one with its scope. Pvt Harry S. Smith was one of the first 50 snipers picked for training at OSD. He was in the first of three classes.

Is the scope for sale?

Virtually none of the original 1100 rifles have been discovered, and I was told they were destroyed after the scopes were removed for storage. I find this odd, since they represented 2% of the total number of 1903's owned by the Corps, and very few of them (about 120 to 150), were ever used in combat, where th attrition rate was severe.

jt


As of right now I don't think the owner wants to sell the scope. I've been helping him find parts and information for a while. And his wife said very sarcastically "let's see how good you are at finding stuff, find this rifle!" A pretty impossible task, I know.


Do you have any more information on Pvt Harry S Smith? If I can't find the rifle maybe more information on the sniper it was assigned to.

So the rifles were destroyed? That doesn't make much sense, I thought the Marines got as many 1903s as they could get especially post WWI.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Smith transferred from OSD to the 13th Infantry and went to France too late for combat.

Post WWI, the Marines manned down and stored the majority of their 1903's, including the vast majority of the sniper rifles (scopes stored separately) except for a few that went to Nicaragua. The Marines had a slew of trained snipers after WWI, but no MOS for the job. The paper trail just fades away.

I don't think you will ever find that rifle, or any of the rest of them. I have been looking for over ten years. There are dozens of fakes around. Beware. I don't think there are but a very few individuals who can identify an original except by known serial numbers.

jt

[John Beard]

I checked my data bases. There are virtually no USMC rifles right around that serial number. The closest I can come is S/N 612145, which is a serial number enscribed in a USMC bolt.

J.B.

[Smokeeaterpilot]

Thanks for the help. I may have given the wrong information. My friend has corrected me. The A5 currently in the case is the not the scope that came with the case they were purchased separately.

But this has just got more confusing and more interesting.

Now the serial number is not found anywhere near a USMC rifle. So did the Army ever use A5 scopes? Is there a reason there is no close connection through the serial number?

Also, why would the Marines destroy the rifles but keep the scopes? I always thought the Marines were always low on equipment so they would constantly rebuild and re-arsenal over and over again. And if it didn't meet USMC specs then it was beyond repair. Am I incorrect in that assumption?

Thanks so much for the help everyone!

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Interesting story about these rifles. The scope case you have is for the rifle whose number is written on the case, and was issued to Pvt. Smith while he was at GITMO in 1918. Pvt. Smith would subsequently attend the USMC OSD Sniper School and then be assigned to the 13th Marine Regiment which would deploy to France in time to miss all hostilities. When he was discharged, the rifle was separated from its scope and evidently Pvt Smith kept his scope. The snipers turned in their rifles, but for some reason, some of the snipers managed to retain their scopes. The scopes were put into storage at Philly Depot, but some would (complete with matching rifle) be used in the Banana Wars. At some later time in history, the scopes were still in storage, but the rifles seem to have disappeared. Someone bought the scopes at auction in the mid-50's and sold them to consumers. Being drilled and tapped, the rifles were no longer serviceable. Bye, bye rifles.

FYI, after WWI, the Marines had way more 1903's (about 50,000) than they needed after manning down after the war.

I have several known USMC snipers in that serial range. The rifle in question was one of the first batch of snipers modified by Winchester for the Corps. Part of the first batch went to GITMO, the rest went to Quantico.

[cplnorton]

Jim, I've been researching this a lot. And I'm thinking along the lines of you.

I think since the WWI snipers were all in the low serial range, and those receivers had been drilled and tapped. The Marines probably destroyed them because of that. Maybe they weighed the odds that since there had been failures in the low serial range and they had a surplus anyways, why take the chance on a drilled low number receiver?

If I was in command and saw the data from Hatcher and had a huge surplus of rifles, I probably would have made that call too. At least on the ones that had been drilled.

I guess it's hard to know for certain and we will never know probably for sure. But it makes sense to me. :) And it might explain why Jim has never found one in all of these years.

[Smokeeaterpilot]

Thanks so much guys. even though I wasnt able to find the rifle. Finding information on the Marine is HUGE thankss everyone for your help.

[Smokeeaterpilot]

I don't believe RIA had numbers that high, Never saw one above the 400,000 range.

I've seen one in the over 1 million range, they're rare but out there! RTL posted it on gunboards a couple years ago when I asked about my 429,902 and I was taught about the SA/RIA hybrids.

[Promo]

I have had 413.xxx RIA rifle. I believe they did them up to 42x.xxx if I remember correctly.

[Smokeeaterpilot]

30287

I just Googled high number 1 million Rock Island 1903 and this came up a 1.2 million serial range.

They're out there but extremely rare. I've personnally never seem one.

[Smokeeaterpilot]

One that high is one I'd really want!

[Smokeeaterpilot]

You and me both I've seem them floating around the forums from time to time. never personnally seen one though

[cplnorton]

30287

I just Googled high number 1 million Rock Island 1903 and this came up a 1.2 million serial range.

They're out there but extremely rare. I've personnally never seem one.

Rock Island made a bunch of receivers they never built into rifles. Most had the serial numbers on them, but some didn't. These RIA spare recievers were found in the mid 20's and sent to SA for completion. So if you find a high number RIA with say a SA 26/27 barrel it probably is original. But the number on that RIA was actually put on by SA. It was a receiver they finished and put that serial on it.