Rock Island Auction RB M1903

[Major Tom]

In April R.I.A. will auction a 1903 RB rifle. Looks really nice. Any guess what will be final bid? Go to their website to look. www.rockislandauction.com

[Fred]

Nice rifle. I've no idea what it might go for. However I've noticed that it appears not to have a Rod Bayonet stacking swivel.
Look at the photo of the one being sold and then look at the swivel on another with the correct Rod Bayonet configuration. There should be a flat on one side of the swivel stud or screw hole. The one in the photo of the rifle to be auctioned seems to not have this feature.
So, several updates happened along the way while these rifles were out there before they started going back to be altered. That alteration continued for most of the first decade of the 20th Century. An interesting observation. It's probably legitimate and the rifle appears to be the real deal.
The rifle appears to have an original rear sight in that it seems to be one piece and not made of two pieces. Those are tough or impossible to get if they aren't already on a rifle.
If anybody has one they'd like to sell me, I'll pay them whatever they want for it. Honest Injun.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/64-web-preview-05-7_zpsk6zzxtmw.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/64-web-preview-05-7_zpsk6zzxtmw.jpg.html)

Here are close up photo's of the area on my rifle for comparison...

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/Muz%201_zpsglon9yjo.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/Muz%201_zpsglon9yjo.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/Muz%204_zpsynwypyi5.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/Muz%204_zpsynwypyi5.jpg.html)

[John Beard]

The Rock Island Auction rifle looks like a restored dug relic. For what it's worth.

Fred, what does the flat on the stacking swivel do? I don't own a rod bayonet rifle and I've never been able to figure that out. Please advise.

Thanks!

J.B.

[Fred]

John, as near as I can figure out, when dismounting the front band, the bayonet release button was found to be in the way. Unless the front band swivel screw and swivel were completely removed, the band couldn't come off or on. Of course it was known that a soldier will eventually loose a small part if it doesn't stay attached to the rifle. So, they took a little off of one side of the stacking swivel to allow it to clear the button. the binding screw only needed to be loosened and so soldiers didn't loose the screws. The stacking swivel seems to be designed to be rotated to the "up" position to facilitate its passing over the bayonet release button IF the button were depressed all the way at the same time.

[Fred]

Being LUCKY to be able to finally study this type of rifle, I've discovered something else that I'd wondered about these rifles for years. I've wondered what keeps the front band from coming off when the rifle recoils. Well, on what looks like the ears of the bayonet release button Housing through which the bayonet slides, there is a slight flare or mushrooming on its outer edge that catches the front edge of the front band IF and as long as the front band is completely secured by tightening the stacking swivel screw snuggly, thus pulling the band tightly behind the catching shoulders..

[John Beard]

John, as near as I can figure out, when dismounting the front band, the bayonet release button was found to be in the way. Unless the front band swivel screw and swivel were completely removed, the band couldn't come off or on. Of course it was known that a soldier will eventually loose a small part if it doesn't stay attached to the rifle. So, they took a little off of one side of the stacking swivel to allow it to clear the button. the binding screw only needed to be loosened and so soldiers didn't loose the screws. The stacking swivel seems to be designed to be rotated to the "up" position to facilitate its passing over the bayonet release button IF the button were depressed all the way at the same time.

Thanks!

J.B.

[John Beard]

Being LUCKY to be able to finally study this type of rifle, I've discovered something else that I'd wondered about these rifles for years. I've wondered what keeps the front band from coming off when the rifle recoils. Well, on what looks like the ears of the bayonet release button Housing through which the bayonet slides, there is a slight flare or mushrooming on its outer edge that catches the front edge of the front band IF and as long as the front band is completely secured by tightening the stacking swivel screw snuggly, thus pulling the band tightly behind the catching shoulders..

Thanks!

J.B.

[Kragrifle]

I was of the belief that Rock Island never produced a rod bayonet rifle for issue. I believe I have read/heard that they may have produced one for whatever reason, but not for general issue. Is this correct?
Also, as an aside, a book by a well known author on the 1903 Springfield has as his representation of the rod bayonet rifle a parts gun as evidenced by the incorrect, later trigger guard. Notice the trigger guard on this Rock Island. The real rod bayonet had a very distinctive shape to the trigger guard with the long sides being parallel. The later trigger guards are more rounded as on the RI rifle.

[Fred]

Trigger guard shape difference? Show us some photographs please of what you're describing.
Rod Bayonet trigger guards and later trigger guards should be the same except for the size of the slot for the trigger. I'd be interested in seeing a difference in shape.
The trigger guard on my rifle for instance is definitely a Rod Bayonet trigger guard as is evidenced by the longer trigger slot and the cross pin that was inserted through it to dis allow the trigger enough forward movement in the slot to release the sear of the cocking piece. Other than the length of the trigger slot and the presence of the pin, I cannot discern any difference in shape between the trigger guards on my later 03's and on my Rod Bayonet 03.

[John Beard]

I was of the belief that Rock Island never produced a rod bayonet rifle for issue. I believe I have read/heard that they may have produced one for whatever reason, but not for general issue. Is this correct?
Also, as an aside, a book by a well known author on the 1903 Springfield has as his representation of the rod bayonet rifle a parts gun as evidenced by the incorrect, later trigger guard. Notice the trigger guard on this Rock Island. The real rod bayonet had a very distinctive shape to the trigger guard with the long sides being parallel. The later trigger guards are more rounded as on the RI rifle.

Rock Island Arsenal produced a very small quantity of rod bayonet rifles, perhaps less than 100. None were issued and only one survives, and it resides in the Rock Island Arsenal museum.

Like Fred, I have noticed no difference in rod bayonet trigger guards other than the trigger slot that Fred described.

J.B.

[Kragrifle]

I have only seen 5 or 6 rod bayonet rifles that I thought were real. On the rifles that were correct the trigger guard had a very distinct shape. I also found this TG on a later rifle that appeared to be a rebuild. My RB 1903 in numbered 57294 and has this trigger guard (as well as the front stacking swivel with the machined flat). I have photos I can send to someone but I have not yet mastered posting photos here. The photo shows the RB 1903 above with the later 1903 trigger guard below.

[Kragrifle]

30203

[Kragrifle]

30204

[Kragrifle]

30205

[Fred]

The longer trigger guard must be intended for a double trigger set up as on a set trigger?

[Kragrifle]

Nope. I have seen this TG on every good RB 1903.

[Fred]

Beats me. I'm no expert. I've seen at least five period pictures that seems to show a normal trigger guard. None that show an elongated trigger guard. All the photo's of the undisputedly unaltered and original Rod Bayonet 03's that've sold for seriously big money to advanced collectors have the normal trigger guard. The detailed drawing of the trigger guard in the 1904 Rod Bayonet manual shows a normal trigger guard. Beats me...

[Fred]

Here are some wonderful period photographs that I've borrowed from my copy of the book, Rock Island Rifle Model 1903, written by Nick Ferris. These photo's definitely show the normal trigger guard. The drawing is out of the 1904 printing of "Description And Rules For The Management Of The U.S. Magzine Rifle, Model Of 1903, Caliber .30"
It too shows the normal trigger guard.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0232_zpsq4ernl2d.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0232_zpsq4ernl2d.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0225_zpsmtxf1vh1.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0225_zpsmtxf1vh1.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0216_zpsmvrxyfgq.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0216_zpsmvrxyfgq.jpg.html)

(http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0226_zpsjjic14oj.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0215_zps34osqgsd.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0215_zps34osqgsd.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0214_zpsh7lk87cp.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0214_zpsh7lk87cp.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0231_zpsxrfbuseh.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0231_zpsxrfbuseh.jpg.html)

[Fred]

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/5531A-JPG633536161229939674_zpsdj6yfqrd.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/5531A-JPG633536161229939674_zpsdj6yfqrd.jpg.html)

[Kragrifle]

HI Fred,
Pretty convincing I must say. Still I have observed the triggerguard with the parallel sides on a 5 or 6 RB rifles, and have made a point of noting the shape. An interesting point about the guard on my rifle is that the sear is not released when the trigger is pushed forward. This was the problem with the RB rifles and why the pin was added. It has been more than 20 years since I took my rifle apart, but as I remember my rifle does not have the pin.

[Fred]

I've read that about half (50 or so) of the 100 RB rifles known to exist have been assembled from original parts where possible. The other half (50 or so) are original to form and have never been modified or converted. On the rifles that I've seen that have been assembled from parts, most would look pretty good from a distance, but a closer inspection would show some later or updated parts. Some have a 30-06 barrel that was used because a 30-03 barrel couldn't be found. Some have a serrated button for the bayonet release which were used on the experimental long rifles. Some have later stocks that've been altered by having wood added to them. Some have the later split rear band. Most have two part rear sights. Some have later butt plates with the large trap door. Some have the later trigger guard. Some have Krag sight leafs. etc. etc. These rifles never seem to go for the high dollar amounts that an original rifle will bring. I knew when I bought my rifle that it had been assembled with primarily original parts. However, there were still a lot of little parts that needed to be replaced with original Rod Bayonet parts. Except for two remaining hard to notice features, the original Rod Bayonet parts that were missing were found and installed. It being an assembled rifle, my rifle didn't cost $50,000.00 or higher like an all original rifle would've. It only cost me a little over $2,000.00. I think that the stock alone is worth more than that, so I feel I did OK on the deal.
I'm very fortunate that it's one of the 100 or so RB rifles that are known. AND of course it has a 30-03 barrel. THAT's always a good thing as Forest Gump would say. I was LUCKY that it did and that it also had an original RB stock. The auction description said that the rifle was assembled from Bannerman parts when such were available long ago. Well, they often say anything for a sale. However, I would imagine that such parts might've been available through Bannerman's up to any time before WWII. Beats me. Maybe around 1910 or so. Who knows...
Not being able to look at them myself and not being much of an expert on 03's or anything else, I'm just wondering if the rifles you mentioned seeing with the elongated trigger guards might possibly have been reassembled long ago using as many original parts as used to be possible, including any surplus Model 1900 and maybe some other experimental or trial parts. You're convinced they appear to be original and all legit. They might just be that. Maybe not completely. However because they have a trigger guard that was never known to be on any issue rifle, let alone a documented and original RB rifle, experimental or otherwise, I will have to conclude that the rifles are possibly not entirely original in construction.
Now it's possible that the trigger guard on your rifle is an unknown experimental type that was used with other original parts to build your rifle. Maybe it was actually one of several rifles that the long trigger guards were mounted on. Lots of experiments were being done then at Springfield Armory. If so, then you should follow up on that and see what you find. The elongated trigger guard is normal at the front and is elongated towards the back. There shouldn't have been any reason for this to be a Winter Trigger Guard to facilitate the use of gloves because it doesn't allow for any extra room for the gloved finger to fit into the trigger guard. All of the extra room is at the Back of the guard, as if there were plans for it to be mated with a double set trigger. Is the trigger slot longer than on a normal trigger guard?
Anyone who wants to can certainly keep such a trigger guard on their rifle. However, until more is understood about them, I'd personally be more than a little cautious in concluding that such trigger guards were standard issue on Rod Bayonet 1903's. The evidence I've seen just doesn't point to it.

By the way, I'd really be interested in seeing your rod bayonet rifle! Got any pictures? I never get to see enough of the type! They're All neat!

Fred

[Kragrifle]

Bought the rifle more than 25 years ago. I disassembled it and inspected every part. Cartouche is script FC which should be correct for the end of production. As I seen this TG on every RB that looked correct I was satisfied, though I did note that it would not "fire" when the trigger was pushed forward .
Will be in Baltimore this WE and gone the following week so it will be awhile before I can do a lot. If you want, send me your email and I'll send you a few photos.

[Kragrifle]

had seen

[Southron]

I noticed that the patina on the receiver and rear sight collar does not match the patina on the rod bayonet and front barrel band. Both parts seem to be almost brand new or original spare parts that have been in continuous storage, covered with cosmoline that preserved their original finish

[Fred]

If you're referring to the bayonet and front barrel band in the two Bottom photo's, they show the front area on my rifle. I posted them for a comparison with the rifle being auctioned to show the flat area of the RB stacking swivel.