Alvin York M1917 or M1903

[Smokeeaterpilot]

Hey I know this is a hot button issued that's apparently ongoing on multiple forums.

Did Alvin York carry a M1917 during his exploits for valor that made him the recipient of the CMOH or a M1903.

I know all men in his Unit I believe the 82th Division in France were issued M1917s.


Apparently Alvin York wrote in his memoirs that he did not like his "English" rifle and exchanged it for a M1903. His family members stated the same thing, however I don't consider his family members a credible source. But the memoirs might be....


I'll defer to the experts.



Does the evidence point more towards the M1903 or the M1917?

[edpm3]

Does the evidence point more towards the M1903 or the M1917?

Neither.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o265/edpm3/York/York.jpg (http://s122.photobucket.com/user/edpm3/media/York/York.jpg.html) :icon_scratch:

Seriously, a majority of the evidence seems to point toward the Model of 1917, but I think none of us will know for sure until we meet up with Alvin face to face.

[BEAR]

While I can't address SGT York's memoirs and the date of the statement above, I can relate the early history of the 82nd in France. Maybe some questions can be answered by the information contained in these passages I post here (unfortunately SGT York's exploits in this book only refer to him expending all his rifle ammo):

Official History of 82nd Division
American Expeditionary Forces
"All American' Division 1917-1919 "


Major General George B. Duncan
Written by Divisional Officers
Designated by the Division Commander

THE SOMME AND LAGNY SECTORS

Division Headquarters opened in Escarbotin, Somme,
France, on May 16th. The troops were held at Le Havre
only long enough to exchange U. S. 1917 rifles for Brit-
ish rifles and receive helmets and gas masks, when they
proceeded by rail to the British training area adjoining
Escarbotin.

.....Our troops assimilated those features which appealed to
them, especially the games and method of bayonet fighting,
and applied themselves to mastering the Lee-Enfield rifle,
the Lewis automatic rifle and the Vickers machine gun.

.....Early in June, details of officers and non-commissioned
officers were guests of British front-line units in the new
trenches before Albert and Amiens, where the lines were
becoming newly stabilized after the upheaval which fol-
lowed the successful enemy offensive of March 21, 1918.
It was during one of these tours of duty that Captain
Jewett Williams, 326th Infantry, was killed, June 9, 1918,
the first casualty in action from the 82nd Division. It
was generally assumed by both British and American of-
ficers that the American battalions were to be attached
immediately to British brigades and share the honors and
burdens of redeeming the lost battlefields of Picardy. This
assumption was suddenly overturned by an order entrain-
ing the Division for destination near Toul. The Lee-En-
field rifles, to which the troops had just become accustomed,
and the Lewis automatic rifles and Vickers machine guns
were turned back to the British, and the U. S. 1917 Rifle
(Eddystone) was reissued. The train movement began
June 16, 1918, and lasted two full days. The Division
occupied towns and villages north of Toul, and once again
addressed itself to the task of obtaining and mastering
new weapons.

[tmark]

Because of the open sights on the 03 compared to the peep sight on the M17, I think the open sight could be used faster to sight for a shot than a peep sight in combat. This is a good topic for mythbusters.

[Nubber]

Because of the open sights on the 03 compared to the peep sight on the M17, I think the open sight could be used faster to sight for a shot than a peep sight in combat. This is a good topic for mythbusters.

I feel there is some credence to your theory. This past hunting season I had acquired a Benelli Tactical shotgun with the Ghost Ring sight. (peep sight) The first three deer that ran by me, I dropped with one shot and was very pleased with the pattern of the buckshot from this shotgun. I was feeling very cocky until I messed the next three. After mulling this over for awhile, I came to the conclusion that on the first three shots I was ready for the deer with the shotgun to my shoulder, but the last three came as a surprise and I had to shoulder the weapon and then get on target. Most of these deer were crossing a logging road in a dead run so not much time to aim and fire. The bead sight on my old shotgun was much faster to get on target and I managed to take the next deer to cross the road. Having said that, if you are not use to shooting a shotgun at deer, the tendency is to not get your cheek weld on the stock as you are looking at the deer and not down the barrel and manage to miss the deer by shooting high. (Buck Fever) I feel the Ghost Ring (peep sight) will be more accurate for most people, as it will force you to get your head down on the stock, but not as fast to acquire the sight picture. That's my story and I'm sticking too it...........

As a side note, after rereading this I didn't want people to thing all this happened in one day of hunting. Our season runs form mid November through the first week of January. :icon_salut:

[PhillipM]

sigh...let's continue to beat a dead horse

http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?49037-Official-Use-of-the-Term-quot-Enfield-quot-for-the-M1917/page4

[Fred]

Alvin York said that he used a 1903 Springfield
A buddy of Alvin York who was in the same squad as York said that on the day York conducted his heroic act, he was carrying one of 1903 Springfield's that was one of several that'd been grabbed earlier (by one of their squad) from a bunch of them in Stack Arms behind a mess tent.
I choose to believe York. Now I'm no "expert" on WWI and all that goes with it, so I'll just believe the men who were there and lived through it.

[IditarodJoe]

Alvin York said that he used a 1903 Springfield
A buddy of Alvin York who was in the same squad as York said that on the day York conducted his heroic act, he was carrying one of 1903 Springfield's that was one of several that'd been grabbed earlier (by one of their squad) from a bunch of them in Stack Arms behind a mess tent.
I choose to believe York. Now I'm no "expert" on WWI and all that goes with it, so I'll just believe the men who were there and lived through it.
I have no dog in this fight (as I know for certain that Alvin was actually carrying a model '94 Winchester), but for sake of clarity did York actually write somewhere that he had a Springfield on that day or are these simply reports of stories about what somebody said someone else told them?

[StockDoc]

I tend to believe the Movie with Gary Cooper, since Sgt York was tech advisor to the movie, and was on set a few times.

Probably have the same discussion about Chris Kyle in a hundred years.

[PhillipM]

I have no dog in this fight (as I know for certain that Alvin was actually carrying a model '94 Winchester), but for sake of clarity did York actually write somewhere that he had a Springfield on that day or are these simply reports of stories about what somebody said someone else told them?

York never wrote what rifle he used and it was supposedly stolen on the troopship on his way back home. The tale of the mess tent 03's came from a letter sent in and printed in the American Rifleman a few years ago where the writer said his relative was the one that took the 03's.

[Fred]

Yea, it was the letter writer's father who had been in York's squad. It's an interesting letter. The guy's dad wasn't going into the line with the others because of an injury and so York asked the man if he could take his 1903 with him into the line, which was one of the five or so 1903's that had all been stacked up together behind a mess tent when one of them saw the Five or Seven or so 03's all stacked together and jumped on the juicy opportunity to grab them up and run back to their squad with them. The son's dad told him that his 1903 must've been the rifle that York used in his exploits because it all occurred the next day or two after York left with it. That's how the 1903 came into the picture when everyone else (except for the other guy's with their 1903's) had 1917 Enfield's.
As for whether or not an American soldier would dare to leave his issued 1917 for a 1903 Springfield he saw laying around, all I can say is that my grandpa, a WWI veteran, told me many times that his buddy, Fred Smith, said that in their Infantry unit, if they saw a 1903, they'd try to grab the 03 every time. Shades of Guadalcanal!

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Alvin York said that he used a 1903 Springfield
A buddy of Alvin York who was in the same squad as York said that on the day York conducted his heroic act, he was carrying one of 1903 Springfield's that was one of several that'd been grabbed earlier (by one of their squad) from a bunch of them in Stack Arms behind a mess tent.
I choose to believe York. Now I'm no "expert" on WWI and all that goes with it, so I'll just believe the men who were there and lived through it.

Alvin York never said any such thing. The argument about which rifle Alvin used never came up until after he was dead. The names of the entire squad are public knowledge, so who was this fellow squad member who remembered all this forty years later when he was probably senile? FYI, none of the surviving squad members were Alvin's "buddy".

jt

[firstflabn]

Fred seems to have different recollections of the story of the AR letter. Here's last year's attempt from another forum:

A few years ago, The American Rifleman magazine published a letter written to them by a man who's father had been in Yorks platoon in the Great War. This man's father had been wounded and had been sent to a field hospital for treatment. While there, he was visited by York who was a friend of his. Upon leaving, York asked his friend if he could take the man's rifle with him.

Seems anyone with the curiosity of a canteloupe would undertake a two step process:

1. Locate the AR letter to determine the name of this son.

2. Order copies of the morning reports of York's company for a few days before the big day to see if there was a soldier with the same last name as our AR letter writer who was listed as unfit for duty in the days leading up to York's famed event.

If there's no match, the story is total BS. If there is a match, it merely preserves the possibility it could have happened as described.

In the meantime, a clarification is needed as to whether the claimed hosptital visit by York was in the AR letter or not. If I was Fred, I would have long ago sought the assistance of packrat-inclined members to locate said letter (to refresh my fallible memory and to establish my credibiity). From the vague descriptions, it's possible the letter was in repsonse to the Mar 05 article in AR (but that's just a guess).

[tmark]

After reading all these comments for many years, all the speculatory data presented seems to lean in favor of the 03.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

After reading all these comments for many years, all the speculatory data presented seems to lean in favor of the 03.

Isn't speculatory data just another way to say BS data?

York did not seem to know the model designations for the rifles we know he used (M1917 and the SMLE - the "British rifle"). To our knowledge, York had no opportunity to even see a 1903 before that day. We know for a fact that he trained with a M1917 (Regimental history), which he turned in for a SMLE in Britain (ditto), which was turned in for a M1917 just before the event. His unit was never near any regiment armed with the 1903. The area in which they were fighting was never occupied by any regiment armed with the 1903. The idea they were milling around behind some tent where 1903's were stacked is humorous at best. But if you say the evidence is in favor of the 1903, what can I say?:icon_scratch:

jt

[PhillipM]

I always wish this tidbit had been expanded upon: http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=21424&page=5


Fred

Not to come into this discussion late but that gentleman who recounted that story in the American Rifleman about Alvin York and the 1903 is a member of my local rifle Club. He's a retired AF Colonel and has been a competitive shooter for many years, still shooting on the Bald Eagles Palma Team, so very familiar with any firearms that might have been discussed or used by York. His Dad served in Sergeant York’s platoon and as a youngster, John had actually had met Alvin York during family visits. John's Dad recounted how the troops were issued 1917s but that some liberated 1903's were available for the platoon to use. John's Dad was whom York visited in hospital and due to his wounds wasn't involved in the brave action. I think some of the confusion in this thread is the fact that York didn't "borrow" the 1903 at the hospital but used what was available to the platoon. John's Dad always indicated York had used one of those liberated 1903s to capture the German (http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=123-germany)http://www.milsurps.com/autolinker/images/link6.gif machinegun nests recounted in the citation and in the movie. I think John would be willing to discuss this further, but I would have to respect his privacy until he agrees to some forum to chat about this.

SAJTU

[swampyankee]

York could not have used a 1903 because it would have been a low number and would have immediately blown up in his face when he pulled the trigger or would have shattered if he would have dropped it. Because we all know they are completely unsafe to fire.

[Rick the Librarian]

I think you can see this subject has approached the hallowed "Shooting or not shooting a LN M1903" in rancor!! :)

[Fred]

I always wish this tidbit had been expanded upon: http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=21424&page=5

I followed up afterward to get more of what the Colonel had to share on the subject. I can understand why he doesn't want to get onto a forum.

[Smokeeaterpilot]

I tend to believe the Movie with Gary Cooper, since Sgt York was tech advisor to the movie, and was on set a few times.

Probably have the same discussion about Chris Kyle in a hundred years.

Really can't consider the movie Sgt York 100% accurate even if he was a tech adviser. It portrayed Alvin York clean shaven when he had a mustache also it portrayed him using a luger to kill several Germans charging his position when it was his issued 1911 at the time.

Those being pretty significant alterations from the original story I wouldn't consider "letter of the law"

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

York could not have used a 1903 because it would have been a low number and would have immediately blown up in his face when he pulled the trigger or would have shattered if he would have dropped it. Because we all know they are completely unsafe to fire.

+1 for swampyankee!!!!!

jt:1948:

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I always wish this tidbit had been expanded upon: http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=21424&page=5

Good grief! How old is this man? Is he still ambulatory? How did this subject come up 96 years ago when it was not a controversy until the sixties or seventies? Oops! I think I hear the BS meter going off again.

Give me the soldier's name and I will personally do the research and publish the result as to whether he was in York's squad, or even if he was in the hospital. They kept very good records of those things back then (and still do). Daily reports kept track of every man in each regiment.

Well?

jt

[cplnorton]

I've even seen them argue over the serial number of the 1911 that York carried.

One serial was in Yorks Diary, and the other one I think was listed in the SRS as Yorks.

I guess if you could find either one, you would hit the lottery. It makes you wonder if they are in some multi bazillionaires private collection somewhere or they were just lost in the mix and sold when someone passed away, still to be discovered.

The two serials are: 254648 and 244408

I keep an eye out for them. :)