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PhillipM
03-25-2015, 12:06
This is copied from an email from Doug Bowser.

AN INCIDENT AT THE BATTLE OF ST. MIHIEL
By Doug Bowser
My Father’s Unit, the Third Ohio Machinegun Battalion, was at St. Mihiel in September 12-15, 1918. The attack was made by 550,000 US Troops and 48,000 French Troops (14 Divisions) under the command of General John Pershing. They faced 10 Divisions of German Troops. There were 7000 casualties on the Allied side and 7500 casualties among the German Forces.
The attack was made by the Allies and rainy weather made it impossible for the artillery and needed supplies to keep up with the Infantry Units. The Germans were dug in with Artillery support. When the attack was stalled at the German lines, there was a German Artillery Observer Post at a farmhouse, 2400 yards from the American lines. They were directing deadly German artillery fire against our Infantry. The usual procedure would be to use Artillery to destroy it but the Artillery was far behind the Infantry Units. Machineguns could also be used in this situation but there was not an abundance of belted ammunition available for the task. The answer to this problem was the use of long range musketry. These techniques were developed by the British Army during the Zulu Wars of the 1870’s. This is why you see rear sights on older military rifles that adjust as far as 2800 yards. The 1903 Springfield is one of these rifles with long range Musketry capabilities. Even the 1873 Springfield .45-70’s sights adjust to 1400 yards.
The Unit commanders called up 500 Infantrymen with 1903 rifles and had them set their sights at 2400 yards. Each was given two bandoleers of ammunition (100 rounds) and ordered to get into the prone position and deliberately fire both bandoleers at the farmhouse. Fifty Thousand rounds of 150 gr .30-’06 bullets were launched at the farmhouse. This produces a beaten zone of about 75 yards long and 75 yards wide on the target selected. If you are in a trench there is a very shallow protection zone at the front of the trench due to the extreme trajectory of a bullet fired from 2400 yards. There has to be a hollowed out area below the edge of the trench to afford any protection.
When my Father’s Unit arrived at the farmhouse they observed nearly complete destruction of the area. There were many dead Germans, destroyed communications equipment and the farmhouse was no longer habitable. The menace of the observer post was eliminated. I think it shows American ingenuity and adaptability in solving problems that come up in Battle situations.
A similar situation occurred during the Korean War. I had a friend named Sergeant Major George Carrier. He was a Marine at the Chozen Reservoir. He was one of about 400 Marines armed with M1 Garand Rifles and faced with a Chinese Infantry Unit that was forming to attack his unit. The Officers estimated the Chinese were 800 yards from their position and they ordered the Marines to set their sights at 800 yards and rapid fire into the Chinese troops. They were also instructed to try and pick individual targets. After 10 minutes of firing the Chinese had to retire from the field. George Carrier was the Southwest Gun Club’s Chief Executive Officer from 1980-2000. He served in the Marines from 1936-1956. He was a China Marine and fought on Guadalcanal and other battles in the South Pacific. He was a true Southern Gentleman and Patriot. May he rest in peace.

Col. Colt
03-25-2015, 12:40
It would seem that those "excessively long ranged sights" on the older military rifles had some utility, after all! Imagine being in that "beaten zone" with the Americans an unbelievable distance away for effective rifle fire. Thanks for sharing a little known military skill that, when properly used, saved US lives. CC

stretch74
03-26-2015, 09:31
Everytime I have mentioned musketry on this forum or others, people want to correct me and claim that it is not effective. Of course it is. A beaten zone is a beaten zone; from one barrel fired on automatic or many rifles fired at the same time. A cone of fire is a cone of fire. Thanks for this post.

Southron
03-26-2015, 06:51
Geeze....Wonder what a Volley from 5.56 M/M NATO M-16's would do at those ranges?

firstflabn
03-27-2015, 12:40
My intial reaction is to dismiss any claim that fails to list a documented source. Is it a secret?

A cursory reading raises questions about the writer's grasp of the subject:

My Father’s Unit, the Third Ohio Machinegun Battalion

No such unit in France. If he confused prewar service in a NG unit with AEF service in the US Army, he might not be sufficiently informed on a basic fact to be relied upon.

If you are in a trench there is a very shallow protection zone at the front of the trench due to the extreme trajectory of a bullet fired from 2400 yards

2 minutes spent with a ballistics calculator suggests this "extreme trajectory" is about 4 degrees above horizontal (I believe this is reasonably close). Applying a little trigonometry (a term unfamiliar to the writer) - to strike the back wall of a trench one foot down from the top, a .30-06 bullet fired from 2400 yards away that just barely cleared the front lip of the trench would require the trench to be 14 feet wide. Sounds like plenty of protected space to me. No tunneling needed.

Are the other details in the tale as shaky as the above flubs? Does anyone know where the story came from so we can see what it really says?

One last point - the ballistics calculator shows the bullet has about 170 ft-lbs of energy at 2400 yards. Are we to believe this is what destroyed everything in sight (including the farmhouse)? Isn't that about the energy in a .38 Special round at 100 yards?

PhillipM
03-28-2015, 09:42
My intial reaction is to dismiss any claim that fails to list a documented source. Is it a secret?

A cursory reading raises questions about the writer's grasp of the subject:

My Father’s Unit, the Third Ohio Machinegun Battalion

No such unit in France. If he confused prewar service in a NG unit with AEF service in the US Army, he might not be sufficiently informed on a basic fact to be relied upon.

If you are in a trench there is a very shallow protection zone at the front of the trench due to the extreme trajectory of a bullet fired from 2400 yards

2 minutes spent with a ballistics calculator suggests this "extreme trajectory" is about 4 degrees above horizontal (I believe this is reasonably close). Applying a little trigonometry (a term unfamiliar to the writer) - to strike the back wall of a trench one foot down from the top, a .30-06 bullet fired from 2400 yards away that just barely cleared the front lip of the trench would require the trench to be 14 feet wide. Sounds like plenty of protected space to me. No tunneling needed.

Are the other details in the tale as shaky as the above flubs? Does anyone know where the story came from so we can see what it really says?

One last point - the ballistics calculator shows the bullet has about 170 ft-lbs of energy at 2400 yards. Are we to believe this is what destroyed everything in sight (including the farmhouse)? Isn't that about the energy in a .38 Special round at 100 yards?

The 3rd Ohio was folded into the 42nd Rainbow Division, you know, the one made up from National Guard units, hence the name?

I think 50,000, FIFTY THOUSAND, 38's at 100 yards would destroy a wood framed house.

The documentation is the son of a WWI soldier who is a life long competition shooter, 2A advocate, and author of 'Rifles of the White Death' http://www.mosinnagant.net/Doug-Book.asp

I was on the phone with him today, if you want his number to discuss the details, let me know, he's a damn Yankee, a hard headed New Yorker that moved to Mississippi and STAYED.

PhillipM
03-28-2015, 09:53
If you are in a trench there is a very shallow protection zone at the front of the trench due to the extreme trajectory of a bullet fired from 2400 yards

2 minutes spent with a ballistics calculator suggests this "extreme trajectory" is about 4 degrees above horizontal (I believe this is reasonably close). Applying a little trigonometry (a term unfamiliar to the writer) - to strike the back wall of a trench one foot down from the top, a .30-06 bullet fired from 2400 yards away that just barely cleared the front lip of the trench would require the trench to be 14 feet wide. Sounds like plenty of protected space to me. No tunneling needed?

Did you include G1 drag in your trig calculation? 1000 yard .45-70 competition shooters tell me it's very important to hug the wall of the pit, I can extrapolate that.

Col. Colt
03-29-2015, 12:47
Four degrees from horizontal? To strike a target at 2400 YARDS??? More than a mile and a quarter away? If you have a Springfield M1903, look through the sights set for 2400 yards at a target about that far away and tell me the barrel angle from horizontal. It's NOT four degrees. No calculator required.

The sectional density (and thus penetration) of a .30 caliber spitzer bullet is a LOT different than a close range designed .38 Special pistol bullet.
"Third Ohio" is a reference to the original State Militia organizations, still in existence at the time (and under State, not Federal Control as per the US Constitution) and then combined into larger units for WWI. The current "National Guard" in each state is ALL FEDERAL - with control by the State Governors as eyewash camo for actual total Federal control.
Some folks enjoy dismissing anything they didn't author..... "A term unfamiliar with the writer"!? Wow! I would start with respectful questions before issuing any insults or sneers - Crow is not a good dish to have to eat in public. "Shaky", indeed! CC

joem
03-29-2015, 06:39
Neat story. I have no reason to disbelieve it either since I wasn't there.