A warning for those who hunt deer with their Krags

[madsenshooter]

There has been some helminths discovered in the US that are genetically related to those that cause the disease Onchocerciasis, aka river blindness. In particular, they were discovered in upstate NY. Little is known about them, but the potential for zoonotic transfer to humans is there. I can tell you some of what they do, cause the danged things are in my hands producing microfilaria. They can make your face puffy, your nose bigger and they can effect vision. One of the places they live when they find themselves in something other than their usual host is the meninges. I'm probably not the first case of zoonotic infection with them, but know from experience, the Dr will take a look at your hands, say it's a neuropathy or arthritis and if you argue with him, he'll label you as delusional! Guys, wear gloves when skinning deer! Mark Daiute, you saw the change in my face in a few year's time. Cleaning deer isn't the only way to get them. Their vector isn't known yet, but I would venture to guess about anything that would bite a deer and later bite you is a candidate. Horseflies and deerflies would top the list followed by mosquitoes, fleas, those pesky eye gnats and any other blood sucker. One can't hide from them all and be a hunter. But let me tell you, you don't want to mess with them! I been fighting them for over 4yrs, but I've had them a lot longer than that. Now this will make some of you start researching. You'll run into the standard dribble, don't even try to argue with me about it being something that's only in Africa or some other tropical land, you'll just clutter up the post like one fellow did on castboolits.com. I'll give you the link to the freshest info. As far as what they can do? Well they can blind you, I don't think any of you want to become someone that can only shoot in the direction of a sound. And, they can kill you in time. Once one worm species is in, the door is open, via immune suppression, for any other species of helminth. Each has their own little niche to live in and sometimes when you kill one species, another species becomes overwhelming. I don't think these species are new, been here all along with their vectors. Could be some of what is behind CWD. The microfilaria are only .009" long, and a heck of a lot skinner. Got any open cuts, they'll dive right in there to avoid dessication, about the only way I know to kill them. The adults can seal themselves in dead ends of your lymphatic system and chemicals can't get to them. They go on producing microfilaria, and they can live for years! Microfilaria are relatively easy to kill. Any questions, I'll answer what my limited knowledge and personal experience will allow. For those of you not scientifically inclined, I suggest you skip to the discussion in the research paper. These things tried to kill me, they are my enemies, help to spread the word to any hunting forum you might be a member of. https://melittology.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/parasitology-2012-mcfrederick.pdf I'm winning, but it has been a rough battle! Mods, I think this should be a sticky!

[Mark Daiute]

Oh, God, Bob, I'm so sorry.

Funny, I love dressing a deer. Yup, that's a strange thing to say, but it takes me right back to being a teenager and seeing my dad just about glowing over the fresh meet. He's been gone since '92, I can't get him back, but when I dress a deer he's looking right over my shoulder.

Bob, get well! Meantime, I'll be careful when I dress a deer next time.

[Dick Hosmer]

Ouch! That's not good at all. Glad you are "winning". Our prayers are with you.

[madsenshooter]

I'm getting over it Mark, if you read the paper, one of the two species they found in upstate New York has some bovine ancestors. That means that somewhere in the past they may have been hit with and developed some resistance to the standard therapy that is given in Africa, as that's what is regularly used in cattle here, has been for some time. Many deer generations anyway. Some people's immune system would shrug them off, but my father and I have blood types that are very rare here in the US. AB and B. Notice in the discussion that the researcher believes there are other species here yet to be discovered. I don't know about the deer population in Maine Mark, but here in SE Ohio, when I was a boy in the 60's it was very rare to see a deer. Now they're in people's yards! It's not easy to discover that you have the vermin, they don't run around and make themselves known. Dogs get the things too! Mom had one large dog that developed a lump on his neck, and he was going blind. I found there are lymphatic ducts where his lump developed. When the things finally got through where his immune system was trying to hold them back, he fell over dead! So there is someone watching over my shoulder too Mark, the more I read about these things, the more I understand just how merciful he is, it could be a lot worse! I've been working with a LLMD, researching for her, and I've been contacting other Lyme Drs, as they have patients with helminthic infections that aren't resolving. The fellow who wrote the article has done a great service by putting the DNA sequences of both worm species and their wolbachia symbiot in the database. I'll get the LLMDs to demand that PCR testing be made available via the NIH. They already test for the tropical varieties. There's a lot more of this around than people realize, I personally know two other hunters with the swollen hands, one of those has hands and fingers about double normal size. Help me spread the word!

[joem]

Hope you get better real soon.

[BudT]

I'm getting over it Mark, if you read the paper, one of the two species they found in upstate New York has some bovine ancestors. That means that somewhere in the past they may have been hit with and developed some resistance to the standard therapy that is given in Africa, as that's what is regularly used in cattle here, has been for some time. Many deer generations anyway. Some people's immune system would shrug them off, but my father and I have blood types that are very rare here in the US. AB and B. Notice in the discussion that the researcher believes there are other species here yet to be discovered. I don't know about the deer population in Maine Mark, but here in SE Ohio, when I was a boy in the 60's it was very rare to see a deer. Now they're in people's yards! It's not easy to discover that you have the vermin, they don't run around and make themselves known. Dogs get the things too! Mom had one large dog that developed a lump on his neck, and he was going blind. I found there are lymphatic ducts where his lump developed. When the things finally got through where his immune system was trying to hold them back, he fell over dead! So there is someone watching over my shoulder too Mark, the more I read about these things, the more I understand just how merciful he is, it could be a lot worse! I've been working with a LLMD, researching for her, and I've been contacting other Lyme Drs, as they have patients with helminthic infections that aren't resolving. The fellow who wrote the article has done a great service by putting the DNA sequences of both worm species and their wolbachia symbiot in the database. I'll get the LLMDs to demand that PCR testing be made available via the NIH. They already test for the tropical varieties. There's a lot more of this around than people realize, I personally know two other hunters with the swollen hands, one of those has hands and fingers about double normal size. Help me spread the word!

Is this another form of Lyme disease? the reason I ask is a person I know has Lyme disease but as far as I know he does not display anything like what you describe. He also travels to Salt Lake City for treatments. I am sorry for your affliction and hope you can recover as much as possible I wouldn't wish that misery on anyone.

[madsenshooter]

BudT, ticks might also carry it. When the Lyme spirochete was discovered, the scientist also noted several different helminth species within ticks. The little ones that the adults produce are only .009" long and a lot thinner, pretty close to being invisible to the naked eye. These are the ones meant to picked up by a fly or other blood sucker. The adults are up to 2" long. Could be worse, some species in horses get up to 11" long! Lots of folks with Lyme are also infected with helminths, either from the tick itself, or because of the Lyme spirochete's inhibition of their immune system. Many people who have them wouldn't display the same symptoms as me, I have type B blood, rare here in the US, but much more prevalent where river blindness is endemic. I've noted a couple other fellows around here that have the swelled hands, their blood types are different from mine and thus far it isn't causing them the eye problems, or the joint problems that this has caused me.

[jon_norstog]

Yikes! get well Bob.


jn

[madsenshooter]

Thanks for well wishing Jon, and you steer clear of them too. The one's in elk are bigger as adults, but as babies, microfilaria, are just as infective. My joints feel sooo much better now that something isn't eating the lubricating fluids!

[jon_norstog]

The eggs can be nasty, too. I've been pretty lucky all these years of drinking from springs and mountain creeks. But I think I'll invest in a good water filtration unit that can remove helminth eggs as well as the larvae. If I can get it together for the Italy trip in May ... and I'm gonna wear blue gloves next time I clean a deer.

jn

[madsenshooter]

These one don't do eggs. But I understand you're talking about other species. These just have babies, most all female, since their little symbiotic bacteria can make them produce without sex, which of course means more producing, which then leads to, whoa nellie!

[jon_norstog]

This is the filter unit I want.

http://www.rei.com/product/866422/platypus-gravityworks-water-filter-system-4-liter

Sounds like you have some really interesting animals living in you.

Reminds me of the time I did some work on a woman's car and she paid me in frozen bear meat. I thawed a big piece of it and it was full of wormholes! I tried cooking it up but the smell wasn't right either. Soured me on hunting bear, that's for sure.

jn

[Griff Murphey]

Bob,
Best wishes on your continuing recovery. Have you thought of publicizing this in your state rifle association magazine? This deserves wider dissemination.

AFAIK we do not have these in Texas. However, occasionally we kill deer in poor condition and others with lumpy lesions, with permission and call by the landowner these are disposed of. I would not clean and take to table meat from any animal that does not look healthy.

[madsenshooter]

Thanks Griff, you all likely gots em in TX too. We're running behind the rest of the world in finding all the species. Lumpy lesions fit their modus operandi also. One of the places the microfilaria live in the deer is dental impactions, right up your alley! You know a bit more about my afflictions than most Griff. When it's all said and done, I feel that what is at the bottom of the immunosuppression, what allows everything else to get in, is the SV40 from the Salk vaccine. But then again, ticks got to me before that. Oh, I have been spreading the word about the deer worms Griff, lots of sites.

[bobgar]

I am glad I hunt my deer with a Remington. I did not know hunting deer with a Krag could get you sick.

[madsenshooter]

Hee hee, it's a Krag forum, had to keep things in context.

[jon_norstog]

Hey Madsen,

If I take an animal it's almost certainly going to be with a US Krag. Thanks for the heads-up. Is this a big problem in Ohio? I have friends there and was thinking about going back east to hunt what I hear are huge numbers of whitetails.

jn

[madsenshooter]

I've noticed a couple others that likely have it Jon. Those are fellows I know have done some skinning. Hard to tell how many others have gotten it via bug bites. It isn't easy to detect. Surveys aren't being done on the potential problem, as far as I know. There are large numbers of deer here Jon, and some trophy racks in the coal area with odd minerals in the water. Coyotes are just getting established, so we're not losing a lot of young deer yet, but more than I like to see. I got ravaged by mosquitoes a couple times while I was up in IN, so if wasn't there before, it probably is now! I wanted to blame the Yeminis since this sort of thing is endemic there, but I guess we have our own. I have no doubt Jon, people have unknowingly died from this stuff! Ohio is a muzzleloader/shotgun state, they've just open up to some straight walled rifle cartridges.

[madsenshooter]

I've been doing more research. These vermin could very well be what is mainly behind Chronic Wasting Disease. Someone will quickly say "No that's caused by a prion, like mad cow disease." Some researchers think a spiroplasma may be behind formation of the prion. These vermin come along with a mycoplasma-like bacteria known as wolbachia which could also be behind the formation of the prions. Remember, one of the o. cervidipedis species identified in the paper has spent some time in cattle. Even fire doesn't destroy the prions!

I saw a mad cow case, long before the British outbreak. In the 70s I worked on a dairy farm in GA, we had one cow that had a bulging eye on her right side. Somehow she produced a holstein calf that had red spots rather than black. She was very protective of that calf. They were kept separated from the rest of the herd and she'd come after you if you came into their field.

[madsenshooter]

Well, it seems I am not so alone in this affliction, and that I have been right, despite what the AMA-type Drs said. (Stupid Pakistani, what's he know about US game animals and what they might carry!) Leading edge research into both Lyme disease and helminthic infection: https://durayresearch.wordpress.com/

[barretcreek]

You say dessication is the only way to kill the little buggers? No filtering, UV, 400 kva sterilization? Seems to be any filter which will keep out viral agents would do the trick.

[madsenshooter]

Except, how do you get rid of the little vermin that are small enough to internally infect an individual cell? Some sorta heat might get to the adults in the lymphatic ducts of my hands. I've tried water as hot as I can stand, but they still live. I'm starting an online tropical parasitology course tmrw. I'll see what the professionals think, a couple of the instructors are from Africa, where river blindness is dealt with more.

[barretcreek]

Sounds like a job for a targeted chemo agent which binds to the intended life form, and then ultra sound or some other form of energy causes the chemo to heat up destroying the life form. Passed this on to a limnologist friend.

We'll check with the Society of Wetland Scientists. They are mostly focused on ecosystems rather than organisms, but this should get the attention of folks who play in the mud. Just as a young lady and I realized we spent the evening rolling around in a patch of poison ivy. Fortunately she was a country girl from Valdosta and knew to get some Octagon Soap.

[madsenshooter]

Interestingly, I believe the adults that are now in my hands, at one time went into my ears! The pressure was tremendous, my balance and cognition were effected, I couldn't speak or hardly write and wound up in the neurotrauma center. MRI of my head, I do believe ran them out of my ears, helminths don't like having their polarity swapped! When I came to three days later, they were in my hands. Since then the swelling they induce in the lymphatic ducts has gone down in my arms above them. I did not bother telling this hospital staff that they'd moved, they'd already given me something that knocked me out for three days, all I wanted to do was get the hell out of there!

[madsenshooter]

Pathologists are not only finding spirochetes in the central nervous system but various species of helminths in the brains and spinal fluid of patients with alzheimer's, MS, ALS, parkinsons. Not in all cases, but the majority tested. Here's a link to good lyme article, doesn't mention helminths, but microfilaria of some of the smaller species, like those that come from rodents, aren't a whole lot larger than spirochetes.

https://newsblog.drexel.edu/2016/02/10/do-infections-cause-alzheimers-disease/

[jon_norstog]

Madsen. this is some deep s**t. I wonder why I haven't gotten any of it - or maybe I have it and just don't know? Keep us posted, OK? And GET WELL!

jn

[madsenshooter]

They are, like the spirochetes of Lyme, very stealthy. There's no big immune response to let you know you have them. I noticed some slight swelling around the cuts after I got them. The worse cut was the one I got on my ankle, I had straddled the deer that was down in a ditch, grabbed the one antler it had left, and felt resistance or motion. So I hastily cut it's throat, and my ankle in the same motion with the old hawkbill knife. Deer also have worms that infect their jugular! The biggest thing I remember noticing was a thickening of the skin around my ankle, like the thin skin between achilles tendon and ankle. Although I noticed it, and recall noticing it, I didn't think much of it at the time. I packed these around a lot of years without knowing it Jon. The lack of immune response seems to be due to my blood type, and the effect that SV40 has on it. I have type B blood, less that 3% of Americans. That number will go up as more from the middle east arrive, as the blood type is more prevalent there. Well, it's time for me to head off to parasitology class! Early worm gets the bird!

[coastie]

Unintended consequences of our actions.
A cousin's son succumbed to mosquito borne virus
and complicated with lyme disease.
20 plus years of assisted living from age 20.
A fellow in Houston had open heart surgery in the 1980's
and contacted hepatitis. He died a few years later of what
seemed like AIDS. Stomach cancer was the listed cause of death.
Poor source of blood supplies then.
rumor had source of donated blood as prison systems.
Want to say...1986....
coastie

[madsenshooter]

At least I know someone is reading the post. I'm still not getting any cooperation from the NIH, perhaps that's a part of the swamp that needs drained too! It appears they're all working towards getting patents on species specific tests for species that are not here, rather than worrying about what is here! Not only are they using govt money for their research to fatten their retirements, all that is needed to find out if one is infected is to test a person's tyramine levels. Tyramine is their excitory neurotransmitter. Even a person on a high tyramine diet will eliminate most of their tyramine, high levels of it is a pretty good indicator of filarial infection, so the NIH is just wasting their time, and our money! I recently took a parasitology course, they're still teaching that it's a tropical disease, but I have found research showing the onchocerca are as far north as the 66th parallel! I think I have them down to one pair, a good sized female in my left hand, a smaller male in the right. I have a Dr. that is willing to remove the big one in the left, but I've not hit them with all the herbals available to me yet, and I want to find THE RIGHT ONE. For the time being, they are sterile and separate and I have the microfilaria under control. Coastie, I think it was around 86 that they were giving prisoners in TX experimental mycoplasma infections. I have sold plasma that was used to make tetanus vaccines, not knowing that I had Lyme, and it appears they don't check. https://parasitesandvectors.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1756-3305-5-242

[dave]

I don't worry about it, I never hunt deer with a Krag!

[Richard Turner/Turner Saddlery]

Madsen:

Just stumbled upon this thread, praying for you, hope you knock these things out post haste. After reading some of the links you posted, I wondered if there might be any connection with these bugs and ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease), and found this https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/06/150610092649.htm

I had a good friend, in his 40s, who lived in Bossier City, LA. He died from ALS last year. No one on either side of his family had ever had the disease; however, he was big into hunting deer and hogs and always did his own butchering.

Richard

[madsenshooter]

Thank you Richard. My father has ALS/Alzheimers. He has lots of reasons to. For one he worked in an aluminum factory for 30yrs, and he used to eat Tums like candy. He too has something that has given him a white ring around his brown iris like I have. In irridology it is called a scurf ring, but it is also a symptom of river blindness. My ring is thinning. Dad is blind in one eye now. I remember back in the 60s going swimming in a nearby pond and being pursued by horseflies on the walk out. Dad got bit, as did I, so I might have got some species from them, even before the deer encounter I spoke of above. I also mentioned mom's big white dog above, who was a horsefly target and obviously died from some type of worms. I got bit just last year, but quickly got some antibiotic/antihelminthic herbal oil on the bite. It hurt like hell for only a little while and oddly, it felt like it triggered an immune response that I needed. It seemed to help with clearance of the Lyme slime (biofilm) from my back. I think I really got the problem on the run! The article you linked to has some interesting things to follow!

[madsenshooter]

Anyone wanna see a delusion dance? Here's what the big one in my right hand has been doing lately. Stupid muslim Dr! A man from Pakistan where such things are endemic, and common. Removal of this dancing gem scheduled for August. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jchNmplCCR8