1941 unertl sniper

[k arga]

I've have read that the ser no range was between 1000 and 27xx, but Senich states that there was between 5 and 6 thousand made. Were they all marked sniper or just the 1700 of them.

thanks
kurt

[k arga]

asking about scope not complete rifle.

[jgaynor]

I believe the USMC ultimately took delivery on about 1700~ 8x Telecopes marked "USMC-SNIPER". This included a number of scopes, carrying cases and mounts that were considered work in process.

[cplnorton]

I was thinking the same as Jim. Around 1700 scopes.

[jgaynor]

There is a fairly extensive file of documents available on the USMC sniper program.
The Unertl order was cancelled in Feb 1944.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/jgaynor/Marcorp%20Eval%208X%20unertl.jpeg

One recently published sniper reference (not Senich) asserted that the quantities of these scope delivered were substantial higher. This information was allegedly based on the recollections of John Unertl Sr.'s widow.
However the USMC had identified a requirement for about 108 sniper rifles per each of its six divisions; plus some for spares ands some for training. We also know from USMC documents and P. Senich that about 100 of the M1903A1 snipers were diverted to the US Navy for mine sweeping operations.

This would suggest that the total WW2 production of these sniper rifles was somewhere in the vicinity of 1000~ units. The remaining unused scopes would have been available for use in Korea, Vietnam and some for sale as surplus.

[k arga]

what happened to the remaining 3 thou scopes that Senich mentioned in his book, the complete book of US sniping.

[Col. Colt]

If that is the actual number on order prior to Japan's surrender, probably canceled immediately after VJ Day - war over, finish "work in progress", cancel contract. Pretty standard end of war=end of contract for almost all war contracts. CC

[jgaynor]

what happened to the remaining 3 thou scopes that Senich mentioned in his book, the complete book of US sniping.

They never existed. Despite the so called "1941" nomenclature deliveries of these scopes did not start until 1943. Production was cancelled in Feb 1944
per the document linked in my previous post. The total quantity produced was about 1700 scopes after all the work in process was finally accounted for in early 1945.

In Peter Senich's later work "THE USMC SCOUT SNIPER in WW2 and KOREA" he reproduces extensive portions of the original file of USMC sniper documents. Although he may have published a higher number of scopes in earlier works I suspect he probably realized some of that early information was erroneous.

[Col. Colt]

jgaynor, that cancellation took place before the Unertl equipped rifles came back into favor due to good results on Okinawa and elsewhere and favorable reports of their usefulness began to overcome the negativity. I agaree with the 1700 number as most likely, just due to the only scope serial numbers reported. And the Marines got some 03A4s, as well.
But, (pure speculation here) the Battle for Japan was supposed to be an enormous undertaking, with over a million casualties. Any chance the Unertl contract got "renewed" or replaced for "the Big Show" and we just haven't heard of it, except for John Unertl's widow's unconfirmed report? I agree with what we know, but could there be a reason for the original, higher published number? CC

[jgaynor]

Col Colt the final accounting was document in a memorandum dated April 1945. It specifies 1750 8x Unertl scopes delivered and 975 still on hand in depot stocks. By that time the Corps was also using M1903A4's and Testing the M1C.
I doubt more Unertl scopes would have been ordered at that late date. I also doubt that Unertl would have had the resources to build thousands more scopes.

[Seaforth72]

The "Model 1903A1 (Sniper) United States Marine Corps" rifle (misnamed "USMC Model 1941" by many, according to Joe Poyer in his book Collecting the American Sniper Rifle 1900 to 1945 page 53)

(jgaynor) Clarification please. 1,750 or 2,725? Did you mean to write "1750 8x Unertl scopes delivered of which 975 were still on hand in depot stocks."? As it was written with "and", that bumped the total to 2,725.

On that point Joe Poyer (op. cit. p. 66) believes that at least 3,500 scopes were acquired, of which 1,750 were accepted by April 1945. Sadly Unertl factory records were not retained. (Poyer op. cit. p. 66) A detailed database of surviving scopes would at least establish high and low serial numbers of known "USMC-SNIPER" marked scopes - assuming the run of numbers was uninterrupted. Such a database could help resolve that issue in the absence of Unertl and USMC records.

Interestingly on olive-drab.com they write "serialized 1000 to 2775" which is 1775 i.e. 25 more than stated here. Ref: http://olive-drab.com/od_other_firearms_rifle_m1941usmc.php

http://i866.photobucket.com/albums/ab224/Seaforth72/Unertl%208X%20scope%20SN%201114/0071024_zps95da3687.jpg (http://s866.photobucket.com/user/Seaforth72/media/Unertl%208X%20scope%20SN%201114/0071024_zps95da3687.jpg.html)

http://i866.photobucket.com/albums/ab224/Seaforth72/Unertl%208X%20scope%20SN%201114/0081024_zps194a3f99.jpg (http://s866.photobucket.com/user/Seaforth72/media/Unertl%208X%20scope%20SN%201114/0081024_zps194a3f99.jpg.html)

http://i866.photobucket.com/albums/ab224/Seaforth72/Unertl%208X%20scope%20SN%201114/0101024_zps73b63922.jpg (http://s866.photobucket.com/user/Seaforth72/media/Unertl%208X%20scope%20SN%201114/0101024_zps73b63922.jpg.html)

I have a special interest as I have an Unertl 8X scope, without the spring (as per USMC standards), with USMC mounts, with the USMC Micarta carrying case and with a serial number within the range quoted for UISMC-SNIPER rifles. It was bought in a military surplus store about 2008. It ended up in the hands of a former USMC sniper instructor and he sent it to me. The puzzle is that the scope is marked "1114 / J. UNERTL" and has neither the classic "USMC - SNIPER" marking nor the "J. UNERTL / OPT. ... CO."commercial logo. It is in rough shape having been submerged it looks like, though the lens caps were still on and the insides remained dry. The large end cap (objective lens) was rusted in place in it took weeks of soaking in penetrating oil and judicious work to free it up. A previous user/owner had used a wire wheel to clean off the rust and there is no finish left on the exterior. As one reader on another forum (Milsrups.com) stated, it was the only one he had seen that looked like it had been used on Guadalcanal!

Colin


Col Colt the final accounting was document in a memorandum dated April 1945. It specifies 1750 8x Unertl scopes delivered and 975 still on hand in depot stocks. By that time the Corps was also using M1903A4's and Testing the M1C.
I doubt more Unertl scopes would have been ordered at that late date. I also doubt that Unertl would have had the resources to build thousands more scopes.

[cplnorton]

Seaforth, what is the overall length of that one?

I have one too that has the J. Unertl style marking like that. But mine I'm sure is commercial. It's a 6X and in the 8400 serial range. Mine also has the USMC style mounts. But mine the overall length is 21 3/4 where the USMC one is 24''. From what I can find of the known serial ranges it seems to go from the USMC serial range directly to the 8000 range for some odd reason. So it's almost like Unertl left the serial range open for some reason or there are a bunch out there still undiscovered.

But this is a serial range over on the yahoo Unertl Group for your serial. They might have more info on your scope if you ask over there. But it does seem like they made some duplicates in the serial ranges between the USMC marked scopes and the commercial scopes. But it's possible too your's was used in the evaluation of the Unertl scopes. They did that pre war and that looks like about the time your scope was made by this info over on the Unertl group on yahoo.

1065 1940 8 X 1" Target No Logo
1069 1940 8 X 1" Target No Logo
1070 1940 8 X 1" Target No Logo
1087 1940 6 X Small Game No Logo Only 12 inches Long
1121 194? 8 X 1.25" Sniper Marked USMC-SNIPER No Logo
1131 194? 8 X 1.25" Sniper Marked USMC-SNIPER No Logo
1165 194? 6 X 1" Target No Logo
1186 194? 4 X Small Game No Logo
1189 194? 8 X 1.25" Sniper Marked USMC-SNIPER No Logo
1237 194? 8 X 1.25" Sniper Marked USMC-SNIPER No Logo
1238 ? 194? 2.5 X Falcon 7/8" Tube


but here is my scope. It appears it was made directly after the USMC run was over.

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt293/cplnorton2/P1230413_zpsn11vnmf7.jpg

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt293/cplnorton2/P1230416_zpsqjukejeh.jpg

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt293/cplnorton2/P1230418_zpsqnil7hwb.jpg

[jgaynor]

Per the above the 20 April 1945 memorandum from Quartermaster USMC to Commandant USMC states:

1. "Reference is directed to the cancellation of existing contracts for the Telescope, Sighting, Unertl 8X as the same had not proven effective in combat. However material already delivered and that on which production had reached a point where cancellation would have been impractical netted a total delivery as follows :
1750 Telescopes complete with mounting blocks and screws
2565 Cases, Carrying
750 Blocks, mounting with screws (sets)"

2. In view of the fact current tables of allowance do not contain any reference to a sniper rifle permission is requested to dispose of all excess material as surplus.

3. "At present approximately the following quantities remain on hand in depot stocks:

975 Telescopes, Sighting, Unertl 8X complete w/ mounting blocks and screws
1790 Cases, Carrying
750 Blocks , mounting w/screws (sets)"

Not withstanding the assertion of Mr. Poyer and others i come down on this subjects follows:

1. In Feb 44 the commandant ordered the cancellation of the contract - ordered - not suggested.
2. The serial numbers on observed examples of the scopes tun from 1000 to about 2750~.
3. As of April 45 the USMC still had on hand 975 Telescopes and 800 M1903A1 rifles (roughly a 100% spare capability). Why would they have bought more at that point?
4. I am aware of the apocryphal comments that the M1903A1 w/ Unertl 8x is to have performed better close to the end of the war than it did in early jungle fighting.

[csm14thbn]

30766

I have # 1477 but someone painted over or tried to mark out the USMC sniper part

[David H.]

USMC-Sniper # 1009 http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7cf09b3127ccec2eceedd033c00000010O00RZuGjRk5Yg9 vPhY/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00109240483020071128081558307.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/