Carlos Hathcock ammo

[Jeff L]

Is there any documentation what kind of ammo he used? Standard ball FMJ or AP, etc? TIA

[Litt'le Lee]

118 match--170 sierra

[Tuna]

He used a Model 70 Winchester in 30-06 using standard match ammo of the time if I remember correctly.

[Art]

It has been many years since I read his book but I believe he used 168 gr. Sierra Match King bullets loaded into cartridges manufactured by the Army Marksmanship Unit in a Winchester Model 70 topped with a Unertel telescopic sight.

[raymeketa]

118 match--170 sierra

There is no such cartridge.

[Cosine26]

I believe that he used either LC 65 or 66 NM Ammo. I do not believe that 168 grain bullet can be stabilized at 30-06 velocities much beyond 700-800 yards.
LC 65 MR 2" @ 600 yards
LC 66 NM 2.2" @ 600 yards.
M72 bullet will stabilize to ~ 1200 yards at 30-06 velocities.
Carlos was in USMC and I do not know if he had access to AMU hand loads.
LC NM ammo was an item of issue in the supply system. Logistics of getting AMU hand loads into Nam would probably be difficult.
IMHO

[Litt'le Lee]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v630/ronhart/boxes_007_zpskicfhyah.jpg?1428729494899&1428729496146

[Tuna]

That is the round that Carlos used in Viet Nam. 173 gr. FMJ boat tail Match.

[Jeff L]

hanks for the replies. What made me think of this was the Mythbusters episode where they try to recreate the famous shot through the scope that killed the VC sniper. I was thinking that an AP round might have been used, since the standard rounds were getting deformed going through the optics.

[raymeketa]

The carton shown (Lot LC 12050) was manufactured in 1961, 5 years before Carlos Hathcock was deployed to VN. Snipers were usually issued the best ammo available so he very likely used M72 MATCH manufactured in 1965 or later.

[Litt'le Lee]

during 1958-62 we were still using WW2 ammo--and eating "C-RATIONS" GREEN LABEL CAMELS

[Griff Murphey]

Pretty sure it would have been .30'06 M-72 in the ex-special services model 70 hunting rifle he originally used. The issue M-118 which of course was 7.62 which had Sierra 168 gr. hollow points loaded was labeled "NOT FOR COMBAT USE" as hollow points are illegal under the Geneva Convention. I never saw any of that ammo until the 80's when I saw reservists using it at matches.

The Marine competitive shooters had been making "Mexican Match" for years by pulling 173 gr. GI FMJ BT bullets and replacing them with Sierra 168 gr. Matchkings but I doubt any of that was used in Viet Nam.

I was introduced to Carlos Hathcock at the 1969 Regionals at Camp Bullis by SSgt. John Stanfield who was the 4th recon BN sniper platoon sergeant and a shooting/drinking buddy. The 4th Recon BN snipers I shot with certainly had M-40's, so I would think that when Carlos went back, which was RIGHT THEN (he was in shock when I met him as he had just gotten THE WORD which I did not understand until many years later when I read Henderson's book) they would have had plenty of M-40's available.

[Cosine26]

Standard issue M118 7.62mm match ammo used the same 173 grain bullet that 30 caliber M72 match ammo used. I have a couple of cans of M118 7.62 mm Match Ammo all loaded with the 173 grain M72 bullet. There were other varieties of 7.62 mm match ammo that used the 168 grain Sierra such as 7.62mm M852 Match . The issue of the 168 grain Sierra bullet being not for combat use was changed several times. I do not know what the final disposition was. I have boxes marked "NOT FOR COMBAT USE" and the cases were knurled about 1/2 inch above the extractor groove. As a matter of fact I have several cans of M72 bullets that are labeled for M72 and M118 use.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/Match852/852Match.jpg

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/NMBullets017.jpg

The DCM price list identifies the match bullet as the M72

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/Bullet0001-1.jpg
FWIW

[Griff Murphey]

Thank you for the correction of the nomenclature on the 168 gr SMK loaded GI stuff (M-852). I never had any of it but I certainly saw a lot of it in use in the 80's at matches.

[raymeketa]

U.S. Match ammunition and the bullets used can be confusing.

From 1908 until 1919 the Match bullet was the standard 150 grain Ball M1906. Between 1920 and 1923 a 170 grain (both flat base and boattail) bullet was tested using the National Matches as a testing ground.

The 173 grain FMJ bullet was first loaded in NM ammunition in 1924. The cannelured version of the bullet was designated the M1 but the smooth (Match) version did not have any official designation. It was called the M1 Type. The M1 Type was used in the Cal .30 Match M72, the 7.62mm Match M118, and the 7.62mm M118 Special Ball which was a tactical round. The bullet was last used in 1994.

The 168 grain Sierra International (SMK) bullet was used in the 7.62mm Match M852 from 1981 until 1997. All cartons of M852 were labeled "Not For Combat Use" even though the JAG determined that it did not violate the terms of the Hague Declaration (not the Geneva Convention).

The 7.62mm Match M852 was the last NM manufactured by the US Military. The current 7.62mm M118 LR is a tactical round using the 175 grain SMK.

The so-called Mexican Match consisted of 7.62mm Match M118 with the bullet pulled and replaced by one of the commercial bullets, usually the 168 grain Sierra International (SMK). It was largely responsible for the decision to replace the Match M118 with Match M852 in 1981.

In the years leading up to WW2, Frankford Arsenal loaded most of the NM ammunition with the cannelured M1 bullet. Following WW2, 150 grain Ball M2, and 168 grain AP M2 were used in Camp Perry ammunition, but only briefly.

In addition to the bullets mentioned, Match type ammunition has been produced by the AMU and various WTBns over the years using many different bullets, mostly those manufactured by Sierra, Western, and the AMU.

[Cosine26]

Pictures added to previous Post

[raymeketa]

http://i59.tinypic.com/2s84g86.jpg

1. 150 Grain CN 1906 Uncannelured, 1908 - 09
2. 150 Grain CN 1906 Cannelured, 1910 - 19
3. 170 Grain CN, 1920
4. 170 Grain CN Tinned, 1921
5. 170 Grain GM 6 Degree Boattail, 1922 - 23
6. 172 Grain GM 9 Degree Boattail M1, 1928, 31 - 40
7. 172 Grain GM 9 Degree Boattail M1 Type, 1924, 25, 27, 29, 30, 57 - 81
8. 168 Grain GM M2 AP, 1951
9. 152 Grain GMCS M2 Ball, 1952 - 56
10.168 Grain 13 Degree Boattail Sierra International, 1982 - 96

[rickgman]

Ray, Thanks for the historical info. Rick

[Tuna]

Hollow point bullets have never been banned by any convention. The Hague convention did ban the use of any bullet with any exposed lead not the Geneva convention.

[Griff Murphey]

I went turkey hunting with some of that green box LVE Russian 7.62x54, back in the 90's. I have found mild loads with 173 gr. GI match bullets in the '06 are ok for center of mass shots on turkeys, kinda like they had a curtain rod pushed through 'em. That Russki FMJ blew half a breast away. Sectioned one and they were that 7Ni concealed hollow space under the jacket. Never figured how the Russkis have gotten away with using that stuff. It's devastating.

Prefer head and neck shots on turkeys but those are sometimes not possible.

[PhillipM]

Hollow point bullets have never been banned by any convention. The Hague convention did ban the use of any bullet with any exposed lead not the Geneva convention.

The United States never signed the Hague convention so it never applied to us anyway. Even if we had signed it, it only was binding between other signers of the treaty and I'm pretty sure the Taliban and Saddam never signed it either.

I don't know what all the fuss is about with hollow point bullets anyway when nuclear weapons are acceptable.

[raymeketa]

There is a lot of confusion regarding the Geneva Conventions and the Hague Conventions and their impact on today's military ammunition and hollow point bullets.

In general, the Geneva Conventions were about people in war, not the weapons of war, which was a subject of the Hague Conventions. The Hague Declaration Concerning Expanding Bullets prohibits ". . .the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body. . .of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering. . . " but does not specifically mention hollow-points or lead-tipped bullets. For many reasons, the U.S. did not officially become a party to this Declaration although it took the position that it would abide by it's general principles. A JAG 1990 opinion concluded that the Open Tip Match bullets was not in conflict with that position.