Detailed photo's of two 1905 bayonets

[Fred]

I took some better pictures of this 1st bayonet and scabbard that might've been issued to the United States Marines. My question is, when were the blades of these bayonets blued and when were they issued and used?

The 2nd bayonet has had some sort of very thin or worn finish applied over the originally bright blade. Any ideas on what this could be? There isn't any wear on the bayonet and it appears to have been kept in storage. The scabbard didn't come with this bayonet.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0389_zpsjwtp3ka7.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0389_zpsjwtp3ka7.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0390_zpsh3fo761e.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0390_zpsh3fo761e.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0393_zpssa2jnczv.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0393_zpssa2jnczv.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0394_zpssx6kzpp4.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0394_zpssx6kzpp4.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0392_zpsrrnwlq6y.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0392_zpsrrnwlq6y.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0397_zpsmvkazinj.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0397_zpsmvkazinj.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0395_zpsjcjw79tq.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0395_zpsjcjw79tq.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0398_zpsadvmunt9.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0398_zpsadvmunt9.jpg.html)

[Fred]

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0388_zpsmfzrsckw.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0388_zpsmfzrsckw.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0386_zpsxbkeo3sm.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0386_zpsxbkeo3sm.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0387_zpsohsxykcu.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0387_zpsohsxykcu.jpg.html)

[Fred]

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0385_zpszcahxpkd.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0385_zpszcahxpkd.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0396_zpse01tucho.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0396_zpse01tucho.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0376_zpsxxqz0kfp.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0376_zpsxxqz0kfp.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0375_zps4rewbmlu.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0375_zps4rewbmlu.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0381_zpsyeeillsp.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0381_zpsyeeillsp.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0382_zpsf8dzjqld.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0382_zpsf8dzjqld.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0373_zpspr4wtapw.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0373_zpspr4wtapw.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0371_zps9otjc9uz.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0371_zps9otjc9uz.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0384_zpslkx2nmcn.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0384_zpslkx2nmcn.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0383_zpsacn56x40.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0383_zpsacn56x40.jpg.html)

[Fred]

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0385_zpsyd80otqy.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0385_zpsyd80otqy.jpg.html)

[Mike D]

Nice bayonets and photos, Fred! Maybe its Hun blood on that one!

Mike

[Rick the Librarian]

U.S. M1905 bayonets had "bright" metal blades for much of the pre-war period with a thin band of "bluing" down by the date and serial number (see your 1909 bayonet). About 1914-1915 at least some of them were blued overall. After about 1917, they were Parkerized. You should get a copy of Gary Cunningham's excellent book on U.S. bayonets.

[Fred]

Thanks Rick. Yea, I know about the standard bluing and Parkerizing. However why is it the 1909 blade doesn't have an Armory Blue or Parkerizing? when I got it, it's blade was covered in a film that barely darkens it and apparently never covered the bright finish very well or the tell tale dark band near the hilt. The blade appears to have dark blotches on it but no pitting or corrosion. The blade also appears to have had no sharpening or wear. Did somebody attempt to darken it with some chemical?
The blade of the 1906 dated bayonet is still in original Armory bright finish and can be used as a comparison. You can see the darkened blade of the 1909 bayonet clear enough in the group photo of the five bayonets and compare it with the bright 1906 blade. They are at opposite ends of the line up. Quite a difference.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0398_zpsadvmunt9.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0398_zpsadvmunt9.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0403_zpsiew1sqhf.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0403_zpsiew1sqhf.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0404_zpszsozsi8d.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0404_zpszsozsi8d.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0400_zpsqff6or9p.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0400_zpsqff6or9p.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0401_zps5cl4skkq.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0401_zps5cl4skkq.jpg.html)

[Emri]

Yea, I know about the standard bluing and Parkerizing. However why is it the 1909 blade doesn't have an Armory Blue or Parkerizing? when I got it, it's blade was covered in a film that barely darkens it and apparently never covered the bright finish very well or the tell tale dark band near the hilt. The blade appears to have dark blotches on it but no pitting or corrosion. The blade also appears to have had no sharpening or wear. Did somebody attempt to darken it with some chemical?


Fred,

If you let a piece of carbon steel rust lightly and clean the rust off, it will darken. That is how rifles are "rust blued" although they are done in a controlled situation. I have cleaned tools that rusted using a wire wheel and when the rust is removed they were "blue" in color. That may be the cause of your somewhat dark blade.

FWIW,

Emri

[Rick the Librarian]

The 1909 looks legit to me. A (near) bright blade with the thin line of bluing near the date/serial number.

[Fred]

When I got the 1909 bayonet. It had Gold colored (spray?) paint in the recesses of the blade where it joined the hilt and also inside the cut outs in the guard where the locking studs of the scabbard slip into the guard. There were traces of gold paint on the wooden grips too (there is still some on the wood) as well as within the screw head slot. I think somebody had spray painted the whole bayonet with gold paint. Maybe the reaction of the paint on the blade darkened it a bit. That would explain the absence of any pitting in the metal.

[Fred]

Here are close up's of the 1906 dated blade with the original untarnished Armory bright finish.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0414_zpsgsbnbseo.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0414_zpsgsbnbseo.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/IMG_0415_zps24puico4.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/IMG_0415_zps24puico4.jpg.html)

[Rick the Librarian]

Yep, that's original!! Nice bayonet!!

Here's my 1910-dated SA bayonet with early scabbard:

http://www.fototime.com/AFA6ACF24D3E069/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/964015811CB4C11/standard.jpg

[Rick the Librarian]

...and, as long we're on the subjecy of USMC bayonets, here a M1910 scabbard which is supposedly a USMC, but don't have a USMC bayonet:

http://www.fototime.com/62745312DB8B304/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/7BE0EA620E8F787/standard.jpg

[Fred]

Nice Bayonet and scabbard Rick.
I wonder how a 1905 bayonet used by the Marines could be identified...? Were they non-Armory blued like the ones that Steve spoke of and described?

[Emri]

Fred,

The "blue line" Rick referred to is part of the heat treat/hardening process. A bright blade will look like this one shown and the "line" is very distinct.

If this helps,

Emri

305823058330584

[Fred]

Thanks Emri. Yes, I was aware of what Rick was talking about. However I didn't know that that it was part of the heat treat process. Interesting. Thanks.

The bluing done by the USMC to some 1905 blades that I was referring to in my above post was that which was referred to by Steve (cplnorton) in another thread in link below...

http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?52408-What-U-S-M-C-Depot-was-the-origin-of-so-much-canvass-equipment

I'd never before heard of that.

[Emri]

Thanks Emri. Yes, I was aware of what Rick was talking about. However I didn't know that that it was part of the heat treat process. Interesting. Thanks.

You're welcome,

The blades had to be heat treated in such a manner as to be slightly flexible if bent somewhat. The rear end had to be hardened so as to not wear from frequent mounting and dismounting. The whole blade was bright until the rear end was dipped in cyanide (??) to harden it, creating the color as an aside.
I still stand by my comments about why one of yours may be light blue and have darker spots due to surface rust ( though maybe not enough exposure to pit the metal).

Emri

[Fred]

That's got to be it then Emri. I just can't see the oxidation occurring from contact with gold spray paint. I think that the oxidation of the blade must have already occurred before the paint was applied. The darkening actually reminds me of a carbon steel knife that's been allowed to lay unwashed after using it to cut meat.

[Fred]

By the way Emri, Thank You for that information on how the 1905 blades were heat treated. That certainly is interesting! I knew about cyanide being used to harden the bayonet lugs, but I never knew it was used on those blades. Thanks!

[CPC]

As Gary Cunningham alludes to in his bayopoints 42 article not all the bayonets were blued at arsenals and maybe this was a poor attempt done in the field or at unit level. Or maybe it was done in France using the Italian process, whatever that was.

Regards,
CC

[Emri]

By the way Emri, Thank You for that information on how the 1905 blades were heat treated. That certainly is interesting! I knew about cyanide being used to harden the bayonet lugs, but I never knew it was used on those blades. Thanks!

Again, you're welcome. I can't remember where I was reading about the manufacturing process. It may have been the article CPC mentioned by Gary Cunningham. I have that one somewhere. It may have been in Brophy. I would think the book Rick mentioned by Gary Cunningham should have it in there also.

Emri

[Emri]

Fred,

I gave you bad info. That is what I get for trying to go by memory alone. The "blue line" is from actual blueing ( browning ). The pommel was not dipped in cyanide to harden it. The whole blade was heat treated consistantly along its entire length. The bayonet catch however WAS hardened in cyanide. I am easily confused sometimes.

I checked myself by looking up the manufacturing process in Colvin & Vail and re-reading Gary Cunningham's bayonet points 42. It is good reading, here is a link.

http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/bayo_points_42.htm

I do remember reading somewhere about testing the blades as they did have to flex somewhat without breaking but return to straight. I still don't remember where I read that.

I'll double check next time before posting what I think I know.

Emri

[Fred]

Oh! OK. Thanks for the correction Emri!