GCA article..........

[Dan Shapiro]

Good read this month in the GCA magazine about phony "Collector Grade" M1's. This may be old news to some of you. While several phony weapons were ID'd, the big worry is that there may be other such weapons out there, purchased by unknowing buyers. The weapons also come with a forged CMP Collector Grade Certificate.

Kudo's to those involved in uncovering this scam.

[bombdog]

i too thought it was a very informative article Dan... Glad i don't have the cash to chase my dream M1... Aug-44 SA, turned into the type one NM... Hens teeth???
bombdog, out...

[Liam]

Surprised and pleased with the article in GCA. Although I am in no way affected, I was glad to see an example of "us" policing ourselves. Who else would do so? We have a great ally in the CMP. There will be several names getting much attention in near future. And a lot of doors will be closing for them as well.

[StockDoc]

The problem I see is that it takes to long to get a response time on a verification letter from the CMP, if you have doubts about a rifle. The people should be charged with Grand Theft and Fraud.

[CPC]

The last couple of requests I had were snail mailed and it took about a week to get a reply. I thought that was pretty quick. Not quick enough for a point of sale purchase but probably ok if buying over the Internet etc. Most trustworthy dealers will hold a rifle that long with a small down payment etc. I suspect more requests will originate based upon the article so turn around times could lengthened. Just my experience.

[JohnF]

Shades of Snoopy...............

As Roseanne Roseannadanna would say, "Well, Jane, it just goes to show you, it's always something—if it ain't one thing, it's another."



http://www.fototime.com/7644179A5C3512F/standard.jpg

[da gimp]

there were Garands built to be used as shooter match rifles by various military armorers & private smiths alike that shoot every bit as well as anything Springfield Armory turned out in the 1950's & 1960's as Type I NM and Type II NM Garands.............Same as on M1D's.... various unit armorers and even some private smiths built some using the proper parts that might even shoot better than those made in the 1950's............that being said.......some years back some enterprising fellows down in the Gulf states who volunteered at Anniston & acquired all the needed parts there started producing M1NM Garands & M1 D rifles using pretty receivers hand picked there too.......... the scheme fell apart when one of them sold them here on the Shopper's page & the buyers called Marla at CMP, who looked up the serial numbers & reported it as just being sold as a rack grade & I believe one was a bare receiver......

after much talk here the money was finally refunded despite the sellers screaming that it was just as good as anything that Springfield armory made back in the day........the fakers then started using Blue Sky receivers....... they'd never turn up in CMP's data base., and the fakers started spreading tales about "most rifles sold by CMP & DCM are not in their data base...... and they'd tell the newbies, if you've seen &^ handled as many M1 NM rifles & M1 D's as they have, you'd know a genuine article as soon as you touch one.........

that is why everyone tells you that if the rifles do not have DCM & CMP papers documenting them as original, to walk away from it...... you might be able to explain why you think one is a real item.... chances are your widow will not be able to explain it, without CMP papers at an auction she's held to sell your stuff so that she can keep the home you guys bought.........,,

So then the fakers who had volunteered so often at Anniston, somehow got their hands ona bunch of all the genuine CMP paperwork, they've since started turning these letters out....... "documenting" their rifles as real...........and that they bought the rifle from someone else who provided the letter...... (most often that person never existed...)

So yeah, I'd like to see these fakers prosecuted under US laws and state laws...........they are relying on the fact that the US Attorney's offices and state/county prosecutors are so very overworked............and unless you can show a pattern of this turning it into a RICO fraud scheme, the US attorney is busy chasing stock & bond thieves/hucksters running schemes in the many millions of dollars..........local prosecutors tend to always be overworked & lack the resources to successfully prosecute these too.

[gulliver62]

Good article. This is part of the reason that I have always been amazed at people who want a CMP certificate with a rifle. With today's home printing capabilities, it is not even a challenge for someone who knows what they are doing. Do your homework and trust your eyes and put your grade on the rifle. If you are looking at D's, C's, AFPG, NM etc, then waiting a bit to get the right info might save you thousands. It's always tempting when it is in that strange price area where it is more than a standard Garand but enough less than market that you fell like you have to buy or miss the opportunity.

[da gimp]

Twice Rick Borecky saved me from spending some serious money on a stock I needed for a IHC postage stamp.... from the notes I made as I viewed them, I was able to give Rick enough data that he nixed them both as fakes...........the only way he let me repay him was to tell him thank you. For years he grew increasingly worried as the fake cartouches kept getting better & better...and when the world's best expert on USGI Garands and I suspect carbines too, gets worried, it behooves us to buy from only those who give solid guarantees.

[dobek]

I have a rifle I bought from Bowers in early 2011 - - - CMP letter (photo copy because it covered 3 rifles) provided by him - - - but I may have a twist - - - It came with hand written data sheet from Scott Duff. Data sheet is in ink, so not a photocopy - signature looks like his - - - I am going to scan and send to Scott for verification - - - it will be interesting to see IF he forged Scott Duff's signature - and what Scott will do if that is true.

Bought more on Scott's papers than CMP letter anyway

I'll have to dig it out of the safe to check it out again, but nothing about the rifle struck me as odd - it is a 6mill so finding matching parts wouldn't have been hard to restore to correct.

I'll let you know how it goes

Steve


PS - i don't have much faith in the legal system - so not much I can do about it anyway - -

[da gimp]

Steve, I do not know anything on this guy you speak of....it could be right as rain.......One of the fakers likes to throw different experts names around...... I told him that heck, then they ought to buy all of those "rare un-documented but are certainly DCM/CMP sold" NM Garands, M1D's that he comes up with...........Their widows would certainly have an easier time selling them than mine would........

the golden rule is this...... without DCM/CMP papers that can be verified & gotten done again.......the value of the undocumented rifles is the sum of it's parts.........now, I'd get a guarantee that I'd have time to get the letter from CMP again myself..... the $25.00 spent is cheap enough....& that if the original papers are proven to be fakes, a 100% money back guarantee and on the high dollar rifles an agreement to pay all legal fees needed to collect the monies I'd spent on it......like I said before, I hate fakers.

[Dan Shapiro]

dobek:

It came with hand written data sheet from Scott Duff. Data sheet is in ink, so not a photocopy - signature looks like his - - - I am going to scan and send to Scott for verification - - - it will be interesting to see IF he forged Scott Duff's signature - and what Scott will do if that is true.

I'm sure Scott would be very appreciative for the information. His signature on a data sheet carries a lot of weight. Forged documents linked to rifles subsequently found to be faked would have a big impact on his reputation...and ultimately, his wallet.

[gfguns]

I have been searching for the thread on the CMP forum with no luck. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Very informative indeed and I also appreciate that someone went to all the trouble to research and share the info.

[dave]

The legal system has no interest in nickel/dime cases!

[Cass]

I have been searching for the thread on the CMP forum with no luck. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Very informative indeed and I also appreciate that someone went to all the trouble to research and share the info.

Here is a link:

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=130475

Be aware that there were a lot of posts and old ads deleted after the fact. A lot of the info was captured by screen shots before it was deleted.

Cass

[StockDoc]

I find it hard to believe that the CMP would support that behavior on their Forum. Word I got was that someone on the forum was running interference for those people, and more people are involved in that practice.

[gfguns]

Thanks Cass


Here is a link:

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=130475

Be aware that there were a lot of posts and old ads deleted after the fact. A lot of the info was captured by screen shots before it was deleted.

Cass

[glindes]

bomdog check CSP Sale/Wanted, 1944 Springfield M1 ( I have nothing to do with this. ) FWIW

i too thought it was a very informative article Dan... Glad i don't have the cash to chase my dream M1... Aug-44 SA, turned into the type one NM... Hens teeth???
bombdog, out...

[duke133]

I found the article to be rather disturbing but not surprising. As we always said at work, there are more of them on the streets than there are locked up. Several years ago RTL (I think) had a post of fake cartouches and had a lot of photos of both the real deal and then the fakes that were showing up. I thought then that this might be an indication of what was coming where those who preferred to lean to the illegal side might venture into actual firearms themselves. Now you have both counterfeit "genuine" firearms and counterfeit "genuine" documentation to go along with them. With the exception of 1 Garand, all mine came from DCM/CMP over the years and I have kept both the certificates and the bills of sale but other than a letter, which can be forged too, there isn't much else a guy can do to show the origin of the piece.
As to the judicial system, with everything else going on in the country, courts, prosecutors, correctional facilities and law enforcement are stacked so I doubt anything will be done to the perps who have been ID'd. If the feds can't take a $125,000 fraud case through their system because of the backlog and refers it back to the state system, do you think they will follow up on any of these issues? I doubt it.
I did scan and pass the article along to some I know who want a Garand and could fall pray to these scams. I hope it's enough.
Dan, thanks for posting this for those that might not have access to the GCA article.

[dobek]

Follow up to my initial post -

Background - I had bought a rifle from the guy passing forged CMP docs back in 2011 - the CMP letter I got was a photocopy because it covered multiple rifles - - but - - it also came with a datasheet signed by Scott Duff (ink signed) - - - -


Follow up - I sent a copy of the datasheet to Scott Duff to verify it was indeed his datasheet and signature - got an email back from Scott today - It's legit

So, at the same time the forger was doing a little "enhancing" - he was also selling legit collector grades - - -

I didn't get burned.

Steve

[da gimp]

the one guy in Maryland isn't the only one doing this........ from what we ran into, most came from the Gulf states, from guys who volunteered at CMP doing grunt work on cleaning/inspecting rifles is what they told us.... they were mainly selling rifles with NO paperwork, nor are in any CMP/DCM files...& claiming they were genuine M1NM or M1D rifles, without papers and without being given time to verify with CMP yourself that the paperwork is real, walk on buying anything that doesn't stand on its own merits.......