like new WRA-Wow

[Mark in Rochester]

http://cmpauction.thecmp.org/uploaded/2015-5-0/a2a8d05a2Da2942D43932Da3432D6729857eb8f5DSC5F0061. JPG


http://cmpauction.thecmp.org/detail.asp?id=2628&n=M1-Garand-Winchester-Repeating-Arms-1342807-Like-New

[2111]

Beautiful restoration

[StockDoc]

not a restoration

[fogerty]

If I had a spare $10k, I'd bid on it, and may get close to winning. What a beautiful rifle!!!

[CPC]

The cmp is not stating it is original. If not a restoration most likely enhanced. Very nice rifle.

[Mark in Rochester]

The cmp is not stating it is original. If not a restoration most likely enhanced. Very nice rifle.

Like new seems to imply original.

What leads you to the observation of restoration or enhanced?:grommit:

[Dan Shapiro]

There's a big difference between "like new" and "Collector Grade". That "like new" description leaves a lot to be desired.

[StockDoc]

There's a big difference between "like new" and "Collector Grade". That "like new" description leaves a lot to be desired.

to me, so would collector grade. Collector does not necessarily mean perfect, I would think. If a Garand came up, used by Audie Murphy and all beat up, wouldn't that be a collector grade/ wanted rifle?

Like new could be anything from, the factory to just sat in an armory for 80 years.

[Latigo 1]

Collector grade is simply a CMP term used to designate rifles, in above average condition, having what they determine to be all original parts. It really has nothing to do with how collectable a rifle is. There were hundreds of "collector grade" SA and HRA Greek returns sold by the CMP a few years ago, but a beat up old gas trap would be WAY more collectable, and valuable, than one of those. This rifle is a step above collector grade because it is a WWII Winchester, in seldom seen pristine condition, which makes it more collectable than the post war "collector grade" rifles sold by the CMP. Novice collectors may not understand what "new condition" or "collector grade" means and be confused by the terms. Experienced collectors will pay no attention to those terms and judge the rifle on its own merits.

[UUURah]

That sure looks like a Boyd's stock to me. If so, kinda hard to be "Original".

It looks a lot like my Winchester except my stock is WWII issue....

[blackhawk2]

Nice put together, nothing more...Not to worry, there are more on the rack in the back....regards...alex

[2111]

Like new seems to imply original.

What leads you to the observation of restoration or enhanced?:grommit:

Only in the way CMP describes it. "This is a stunning example of a Winchester M1 rifle, and this rifle appears to be like new." I would have expected that it would have been described as "the rifle appears to be ORIGINAL and in LIKE NEW condition",
Either way, it is still a beautiful rifle that anyone would love to own.

[2111]

to me, so would collector grade. Collector does not necessarily mean perfect, I would think. If a Garand came up, used by Audie Murphy and all beat up, wouldn't that be a collector grade/ wanted rifle?

Like new could be anything from, the factory to just sat in an armory for 80 years.


"like new" could also mean restored to "like new" condition. With a rifle as nice as this one, without anything that stands out as incorrect, it is just about impossible for anyone to know if it original, enhanced or restored without a hands on inspection. I am just guessing restoration, or at least enhanced, based only on how it is advertised. No argument that it is a beautiful rifle and will surely bring big money.

[StockDoc]

"like new" could also mean restored to "like new" condition. With a rifle as nice as this one, without anything that stands out as incorrect, it is just about impossible for anyone to know if it original, enhanced or restored without a hands on inspection. I am just guessing restoration, or at least enhanced, based only on how it is advertised. No argument that it is a beautiful rifle and will surely bring big money.

you would think they would say something, though

[IditarodJoe]

The CMP has earned a rock solid reputation for integrity in the selling of government surplus rifles. If one actually reads the auction description, this rifle is clearly being offered as being in the condition in which it was received from the U.S. Army. Now, I realize that the concept of "integrity" isn't always fully grasped by some sellers of used guns, but to imply that the CMP would intentionally parse words in an attempt to pass off a restoration as original is, to me, nothing short of absurd. They would have little to gain and everything to lose in doing so.

[blackhawk2]

So why is it not listed as a original?...CMP has a rock solid rep for selling put-togethers....Why did the CMP bone there customers when they sold the IHC's with LMR barrels and forget to tell them they were HRA LMR barrels..... It is all about making money.....regards....alex

[Orlando]

Buttplate does not appear WRA

[StockDoc]

The rear ring on the Gas Cylinder has a flat on the top, so wouldn't that make it a SA gas cylinder?

[Latigo 1]

The rear ring on the Gas Cylinder has a flat on the top, so wouldn't that make it a SA gas cylinder?
The pictures of the rear ring are too poor to see it clearly, but I think it is round. The fact that the cylinder has the milled ledge under the front sight base and still has the original DULITE blue finish shows it is a Winchester gas cylinder. WRA was the only one with those indicators.

[StockDoc]

This is the picture I was referring to http://postimg.org/image/ifpk0hmn1/

[Latigo 1]

I missed that picture. I agree, it looks flat in that pic, but it still has the milled ledge under the sight and the DULITE finish. WRA was the only one with those features. The top of the rear ring on WRA cylinders was finished by hand, on a a grinder, so maybe the person finishing it off just ground it a little too much and made it look flat.

[StockDoc]

I email them asking there input on the Gas cylinder and if it is "Restored" I will post the answer.

[Art]

I know just enough about M1s to be dangerous, but I'm going to weigh in on this anyway.

Unless someone is the equivalent of Scott Duff and holding the rifle in his hands it is very, very difficult to say what it is other than an exceptionally nice looking M1 in early configuration. It could be a restoration on a really, really nice W.R.A. rebuild but I personally sort of doubt that. Unless it is a re park the restorer(s) would have had to use substantially new WRA parts to complete the restoration and in that case even an expert might not be able to tell, for example even Duff regularly uses "appears to be" when speaking of original rifles.

On Uuuurah's comment about the stock being a Boyd's. If it is and those cartouches were applied to a Boyd's stock it the rifle is an out and out forgery and selling it is probably not only dishonest to the point it would tarnish the C.M.P.s reputation forever but is also probably a prosecutable criminal offense.

My personal view is it could be all original from the factory that was a locker queen for 76 odd years, or an extremely good restoration. Either way its going to go for a heck of a lot of money. If I spent that kind of money for it and was concerned about authenticity I'd take it to my own expert (someone on Duff's level") and have him check it out. If I was dissatisfied after getting his opinion I'd send it back, simple enough.

[Mark in Rochester]

As of 5/15 it is at 10,000

I asked CMP if it is in Original condition

I suspect based on people's willingness to bid that high they believe it to be original

I will relay their reply

[RCS]

People do not care if the rifle is original or not, someone will dump a lot of money, same as when serial number 7 sold

[Roadkingtrax]

All funds go to support the CMP mission. More $$ the better, let the collectors educate themselves. The CMP is selling a nice rifle, and people will happily pay what they think its worth.

Anyone can show a better condition Winchester, though none have.

[robh5]

This was posted today on the CMP Auction Forum by GhostInTheMachine:
"The rifle was as received out of the box. It was mixed in with other rifles of various condition."

[CPC]

The CMP WRA is a great looking rifle. Since this rifle is selling so high, I think it would be interesting if someone from the GCA would do an article on the rifle for the publication. As far as equal or better, the GCA did an article in the summer 2002 issue of a WIN13 that came out of the WRA ref collection (unissued). I believe a similar rifle is pictured in Canfield's book. I think RCS is on to something..

[StockDoc]

never received an answer, price is at 39 grand

[Orlando]

never received an answer, price is at 39 grand

You wont get a answer as CMP doesnt want the bidders to drop out as they wouldnt pay that much for a rifle that isnt correct or original

[usmc69]

http://cmpauction.thecmp.org/detail.asp?id=2628

[StockDoc]

You wont get a answer as CMP doesnt want the bidders to drop out as they wouldnt pay that much for a rifle that isnt correct or original

Thanks, I was wondering about that. They use to be more descriptive in their descriptions, change of the times I guess.

[StockDoc]

http://cmpauction.thecmp.org/detail.asp?id=2628

My question to them was the "like new" description and a gas cylinder that is not Winchester, to which they never responded.

[Orlando]

My question to them was the "like new" description and a gas cylinder that is not Winchester, to which they never responded.

buttplate doesnt appear to be WRA either

[StockDoc]

what is different about the butt plate, besides looking used?

[Dick Hosmer]

$39,000? That's insane.

[LEAD POISON]

$39,000? That's insane.


What he said.

[2111]

Unbelievable. I wonder how many bidders there were. Just two with deep pockets, banging heads or a few ?? Any way to tell, like on G.B. ??

[StockDoc]

Looks like only while the bidding is still open

[CPC]

I thought it was a great rifle but it has some anomalies that appear in some of the pictures. Without a hands on by a real guru (not me) it is difficult to tell. It would be nice if the GCA gurus or the new owner would do an article. Didn't really look at the buttplate but I believe from the pictures the gas cylinder looks WRA, the finish looks very much like dulite. However, the rear handguard definitely had a cut which does not appear to be done by an oprod strike. So this piece was modified/replaced. The price is high in my opinion for a rifle with no providence other than it was found in a box. What does that do for the value of rifles with provenance that came out of the WRA reference collection? That said, I did not look in the WRA ref library book for a match. Sometimes privileged buyers have additional insight at auctions, etc., who knows maybe this was a SA test rifle from WRA and that's what drove the price up. Those are just SWAGs on my part trying to understand why this rifle realized so much money. Good for the Cmp!

[LEAD POISON]

I hope we can find out if the guy pays for it???????????????

[Allen]

I hope we can find out if the guy pays for it???????????????

I suppose they would re-list it for sale or offer it to the next highest bidder. Someone will pay a lot of money for a nice rifle that they will no doubt never shoot nor be able to sell in the future as an investment since they have already bid many times what the guns value is.

[StockDoc]

I wonder what the Fair market value of it was? It was a nice rifle, even with its quirks and the CMP received a nice donation.

[Allen]

I wonder what the Fair market value of it was? It was a nice rifle, even with its quirks and the CMP received a nice donation.

The value was set by the bidders with the deep pockets but as far as Fair market value (if one could be established) certainly not $39,001.00. I hope the new owner gets a lifetime of enjoyment from it and the CMP can always use the "extra" money. Personally if it were mine now I would hate looking at it knowing I could have bought 30-40 lesser Garands for that amount of money. Here again the value is in the eye of the beholder.

[oldtirediron]

Just how many Winchester's are available on the open market that have not been messed with?? You bring up Scott Duff?? Look into his published pictures of "Original " M-1 Rifles, some of them were messed with! Look at his post war book, there is a consecutive pair of IHC rifle's that are obvious put together's and some one pawned them off on him-- Just let me know when you find another Winchester m-1 rifle as nice as that one ! I would like to see it as I have never seen one in 40 years of collecting the M-1 Rifle! Who knows where that rifle was sleeping for the last 75 years !

[2111]

Just how many Winchester's are available on the open market that have not been messed with?? You bring up Scott Duff?? Look into his published pictures of "Original " M-1 Rifles, some of them were messed with! Look at his post war book, there is a consecutive pair of IHC rifle's that are obvious put together's and some one pawned them off on him-- Just let me know when you find another Winchester m-1 rifle as nice as that one ! I would like to see it as I have never seen one in 40 years of collecting the M-1 Rifle! Who knows where that rifle was sleeping for the last 75 years !

I just looked through Duff's "Post War" book and can't find the pictures of the "consecutive pair of IHC rifles" you refer to. Can you help me out with a page #.

[GBA]

There is a very old saying that goes "things are worth what people are willing to pay for them." If you add, "at this point in time," that is the end of the story.

We now have accessible auctions that are watched by untold numbers of people. It only takes two bidders to set the final price in an auction. Figure it out, there are not going to be many bargains in auctions, not CMP, Gunbroker, Auction Arms, whatever. Get used to it.

[mack]

Stock Doc, and others, the last M1 that CMP sold in this condition was several years ago, was a WRA and went for a shade over $8900, if my memory serves me correctly.

As for a put-up job, I doubt CMP would expend all that effort for a fraud. I would call that laughable. Not an aftermarket stock either.

Rifle is likely righteous through and through. What hurts is that the Clinton dynasty cut up thousands of WWII M1s and would have been chopping them by the thousands each month if the CMP had not appeared and put a halt to such a travesty. Likely Obama will do the same to the 1911s in storage now. Many of the Clinton rifles were new-in-the-case rifles, as good or better than the WRA. Or so says folks there who saw them as they went to Cap'n Crunch.

[StockDoc]

"Many of the Clinton rifles were new-in-the-case rifles, as good or better than the WRA. Or so says folks there who saw them as they went to Cap'n Crunch"

That in it's self should be grounds for impeachment

[John L. Lucci]

"Many of the Clinton rifles were new-in-the-case rifles, as good or better than the WRA. Or so says folks there who saw them as they went to Cap'n Crunch"

That in it's self should be grounds for impeachment


Clinton should've had his 'Gun" removed by Captain Crunch!:(

[StockDoc]

Looks like the Rifle will be relisted. Om the CMP forum, the hi bidder said he goofed with to many zeros. They should hold him to it, I would love to be the fly on the wall that night.


"The auction will be relisted. The winner had accidentally entered an extra zero."

BTW, I don't buy that excuse. maybe everyone added extra zeros

[Johnny P]

So much for "it's worth whatever someone is willing to pay".

[Allen]

Seems like they would just offer it to the next highest bidder (and maybe they did) before going thru another auction.

[usmc69]

He meant to bid $3,900.00 not $39,000? He is either a dumbsh*t or a liar..........The bid was at $11,000 a few days before the end of the auction. Why would you bid $3900 when the bid was $11K????? If it was an automatic bid then all he had to do was call CMP and get the bid retracted. Sounds like he was drinking a bit of the good stuff and let his fingers over ride his befuddled brain........

[Roadkingtrax]

Ran out of kids to sell...

[StockDoc]

Sounds like someone got caught fraudulently running up the bid. Don't think I will ever bid in a CMP auction again.

[dryheat]

If 39K won why not let the next lowest bidder take it? The second lowest bidder had to be close to that figure; If your talking 100's the bids go up in increments of ten. At that level maybe they go up at increments of $50(I'm just guessing here, never been in this area). I'd be pissed if I had to go through that all over again. Of course the next auction is different,maybe bidder no.2 will get it for 10K. Here's your chance.

[StockDoc]

here is the bidding history, was post of the CMP forum

Bid History
History for: M1 Garand Winchester Repeating Arms 1342807 Like New Listing #2628
Current price: $39,001.00
Starting bid: $1.00
Quantity: 1
# of bids: 112
Closes: Auction is closed
Started: 5/6/2015
Ends: 5/23/2015
Seller: cmp4
Note: The earliest bidder wins when two bidders place the same bid amount
User Bid Amount Date of Bid
CMPUser8093 $39,001.00 5/22/2015 10:57:04 PM
CMPUser6812 $39,000.00 5/22/2015 10:57:04 PM
CMPUser8093 $38,001.00 5/22/2015 10:47:51 PM
CMPUser6812 $38,000.00 5/22/2015 10:47:51 PM
CMPUser8093 $35,001.00 5/22/2015 10:46:39 PM
CMPUser6812 $35,000.00 5/22/2015 10:46:39 PM
CMPUser8093 $27,012.00 5/22/2015 10:39:45 PM
CMPUser6812 $27,011.00 5/22/2015 10:39:45 PM
CMPUser6812 $11,004.86 5/22/2015 8:49:46 PM
CMPUser91 $11,003.86 5/22/2015 8:49:46 PM
CMPUser6812 $11,001.00 5/22/2015 8:04:42 PM
CMPUser91 $11,000.00 5/19/2015 1:54:19 AM
CMPUser1364 $10,999.99 5/19/2015 1:54:19 AM
CMPUser91 $10,526.00 5/17/2015 12:21:11 AM
CMPUser2832 $10,525.00 5/17/2015 12:21:11 AM
CMPUser91 $10,126.00 5/17/2015 12:20:47 AM
CMPUser2832 $10,125.00 5/17/2015 12:20:47 AM
CMPUser91 $10,002.00 5/14/2015 7:41:06 AM
CMPUser6717 $10,001.00 5/14/2015 7:40:30 AM
CMPUser91 $10,000.00 5/14/2015 7:40:30 AM
CMPUser6717 $9,001.00 5/14/2015 7:39:33 AM
CMPUser91 $9,000.00 5/14/2015 7:39:33 AM
CMPUser6717 $8,851.00 5/13/2015 11:06:39 PM
CMPUser699 $8,850.00 5/13/2015 11:06:39 PM
CMPUser699 $8,502.00 5/13/2015 11:02:00 PM
CMPUser6717 $8,501.00 5/13/2015 11:02:00 PM
CMPUser699 $7,502.00 5/13/2015 11:00:42 PM
CMPUser6717 $7,501.00 5/13/2015 11:00:42 PM
CMPUser699 $7,002.00 5/13/2015 10:59:02 PM
CMPUser6717 $7,001.00 5/13/2015 10:59:02 PM
CMPUser699 $6,503.00 5/13/2015 10:56:15 PM
CMPUser6717 $6,502.00 5/13/2015 10:56:15 PM
CMPUser699 $6,501.00 5/13/2015 9:15:57 AM
CMPUser8093 $6,500.00 5/13/2015 9:15:57 AM
CMPUser699 $6,310.00 5/13/2015 9:15:33 AM
CMPUser8093 $6,309.00 5/13/2015 9:15:33 AM
CMPUser699 $6,301.00 5/13/2015 9:15:07 AM
CMPUser8093 $6,300.00 5/13/2015 9:15:07 AM
CMPUser699 $6,201.00 5/10/2015 3:38:58 PM
CMPUser3761 $6,200.00 5/10/2015 3:38:58 PM
CMPUser699 $6,151.00 5/10/2015 9:20:29 AM
CMPUser166 $6,150.00 5/10/2015 9:20:29 AM
CMPUser699 $6,101.00 5/10/2015 9:19:57 AM
CMPUser166 $6,100.00 5/10/2015 9:19:57 AM
CMPUser699 $6,015.00 5/9/2015 12:17:20 PM
CMPUser6594 $6,014.00 5/9/2015 12:17:20 PM
CMPUser6594 $6,004.00 5/7/2015 10:59:49 PM
CMPUser3761 $6,003.00 5/7/2015 10:59:49 PM
CMPUser6594 $6,002.00 5/7/2015 7:03:06 PM
CMPUser468 $6,001.00 5/7/2015 2:21:13 PM
CMPUser2933 $6,000.00 5/7/2015 2:21:13 PM
CMPUser468 $5,801.00 5/7/2015 12:44:06 PM
CMPUser6812 $5,800.00 5/7/2015 12:44:06 PM
CMPUser468 $5,751.00 5/7/2015 2:11:30 AM
CMPUser91 $5,750.00 5/7/2015 2:11:30 AM
CMPUser468 $5,679.90 5/7/2015 2:08:04 AM
CMPUser1364 $5,678.90 5/7/2015 2:08:04 AM
CMPUser468 $5,506.00 5/7/2015 1:17:38 AM
CMPUser3005 $5,505.00 5/7/2015 1:17:38 AM
CMPUser468 $5,503.69 5/6/2015 9:46:10 PM
CMPUser2039 $5,502.69 5/6/2015 9:46:10 PM
CMPUser468 $5,501.00 5/6/2015 9:40:19 PM
CMPUser1430 $5,500.00 5/6/2015 9:40:19 PM
CMPUser1430 $5,469.00 5/6/2015 9:37:14 PM
CMPUser468 $5,468.00 5/6/2015 9:37:14 PM
CMPUser1430 $4,536.00 5/6/2015 8:35:24 PM
CMPUser7990 $4,535.00 5/6/2015 8:35:24 PM
CMPUser1430 $4,533.00 5/6/2015 7:18:06 PM
CMPUser3597 $4,532.00 5/6/2015 7:18:06 PM
CMPUser1430 $4,518.00 5/6/2015 7:17:10 PM
CMPUser3597 $4,517.00 5/6/2015 7:17:10 PM
CMPUser1430 $4,513.00 5/6/2015 5:19:47 PM
CMPUser4932 $4,512.00 5/6/2015 5:19:47 PM
CMPUser1430 $4,511.00 5/6/2015 5:05:58 PM
CMPUser520 $4,510.00 5/6/2015 5:05:58 PM
CMPUser1430 $4,505.00 5/6/2015 4:53:30 PM
CMPUser3453 $4,504.00 5/6/2015 4:53:30 PM
CMPUser1430 $4,503.00 5/6/2015 4:49:39 PM
CMPUser6795 $4,502.00 5/6/2015 4:49:39 PM
CMPUser1430 $4,501.00 5/6/2015 4:36:34 PM
CMPUser3835 $4,500.00 5/6/2015 4:36:34 PM
CMPUser1430 $4,106.00 5/6/2015 4:20:26 PM
CMPUser1912 $4,105.00 5/6/2015 4:20:26 PM
CMPUser1912 $4,104.00 5/6/2015 3:35:05 PM
CMPUser5348 $4,103.00 5/6/2015 3:35:05 PM
CMPUser5348 $4,102.00 5/6/2015 3:15:55 PM
CMPUser8425 $4,101.00 5/6/2015 3:15:55 PM
CMPUser5348 $4,003.00 5/6/2015 3:08:53 PM
CMPUser7943 $4,002.00 5/6/2015 3:08:53 PM
CMPUser5348 $4,001.00 5/6/2015 2:49:52 PM
CMPUser12 $4,000.00 5/6/2015 2:49:52 PM
CMPUser12 $3,503.00 5/6/2015 2:44:23 PM
CMPUser2209 $3,502.00 5/6/2015 2:44:23 PM
CMPUser12 $3,003.00 5/6/2015 2:44:06 PM
CMPUser2209 $3,002.00 5/6/2015 2:44:06 PM
CMPUser12 $2,601.00 5/6/2015 1:44:26 PM
CMPUser8443 $2,600.00 5/6/2015 1:44:26 PM
CMPUser12 $2,501.00 5/6/2015 1:13:10 PM
CMPUser70 $2,500.00 5/6/2015 1:13:10 PM
CMPUser12 $2,000.00 5/6/2015 1:04:41 PM
CMPUser182 $1,999.00 5/6/2015 1:04:41 PM
CMPUser182 $1,586.00 5/6/2015 12:30:31 PM
CMPUser3198 $1,585.00 5/6/2015 12:30:31 PM
CMPUser3198 $1,001.00 5/6/2015 12:21:44 PM
CMPUser6923 $1,000.00 5/6/2015 12:21:44 PM
CMPUser3198 $501.00 5/6/2015 11:39:37 AM
CMPUser3086 $500.00 5/6/2015 11:39:37 AM
CMPUser3086 $253.00 5/6/2015 11:36:49 AM
CMPUser5051 $252.00 5/6/2015 11:36:49 AM
CMPUser3086 $251.00 5/6/2015 10:48:42 AM
CMPUser1849 $250.00 5/6/2015 10:48:42 AM
CMPUser1849 $1.00 5/6/2015 10:27:09 AM

[Allen]

Looks like the winning bidder CMPUser8093 entered too many zeros several times.

[StockDoc]

yeah, they should of given it to 6812, for $11,000

[cplnorton]

Looks like the winning bidder CMPUser8093 entered too many zeros several times.


He bid on it 7 times total. He either had a case of buyer's remorse the next day or the wife was like you spent WHAT?

I really hope it wasn't a shill bidding case. :(

[StockDoc]

probably automatic bids

[wolley]

Looks like the shill bidder was 6812 and 8903 just lost his mind.
Yep relist it and ban both of those guys for a year.

[usmc69]

Looks like the shill bidder was 6812 and 8903 just lost his mind.
Yep relist it and ban both of those guys for a year.

Should be a lifetime ban.