Short chambered 1903A3

[John L. Lucci]

Has anyone com across a 1903A3 that was short chambered? My one lone '03a3 would not close on a live round (Greek surplus) when I was at the range. When I examined the problem back on the work bench at home with a dummy round I saw rifling marks on the bullet after I pulled the round back out. I see no obstructions in the chamber or lug areas..

[John Beard]

I encounter short-chambered M'03-A3's at the CMP very regularly, perhaps one out of every twelve. Then it's "off to see the Wizard" in the chambering reamer room.

J.B.

[John L. Lucci]

I encounter short-chambered M'03-A3's at the CMP very regularly, perhaps one out of every twelve. Then it's "off to see the Wizard" in the chambering reamer room.

J.B.


Guess it can be inferred it's never been fired since rebuild.. Nice to know..

[chuckindenver]

keep in mind Greek surplus is known to be a tad longer then other 30-06

[John Beard]

Guess it can be inferred it's never been fired since rebuild.. Nice to know..

You infer incorrectly. The overwhelming majority of short-chambered M'03-A3's I encounter have factory-original barrels.

J.B.

[kcw]

Does your rifle have the serial # electro penciled on the bolt handle? A number of the "Greek returns" of ten years ago from the CMP were found to be short chambered. As noted, the Greek brass (ie. 1970) is a bit long, but not the OAL length of the cartridge assembly.

[kcw]

You infer incorrectly. The overwhelming majority of short-chambered M'03-A3's I encounter have factory-original barrels.

J.B.

"Factory original"? Do you mean that those rifles were shipped to Greece from U.S. arsenals in that condition? I assumed that the Greek arsenal didn't finish their re-barrel jobs.

[John Beard]

"Factory original"? Do you mean that those rifles were shipped to Greece from U.S. arsenals in that condition? I assumed that the Greek arsenal didn't finish their re-barrel jobs.

I make no reference to Greek rifles. The rifles I have been working on at the CMP are VFW/American Legion turn-ins. The overwhelming majority have their factory-original barrels.

J.B.

[John L. Lucci]

keep in mind Greek surplus is known to be a tad longer then other 30-06

Tried it with my reloads as well which COL was set with an American M2 ball round. No Joy..

[purple]

You need to verify proper headspace with a set of .30-06 headspace gauges. If the bolt will not close on the 'go' headspace gauge then it's a matter of finish reaming the chamber to a point where it does.

[Peconga]

You need to verify proper headspace with a set of .30-06 headspace gauges. If the bolt will not close on the 'go' headspace gauge then it's a matter of finish reaming the chamber to a point where it does.

Most (all?) arsenal replacement 03-A3 barrels were supplied with short chambers in order to facilitate replacement in the field or depot level. Hence, it is possible that the OP's barrel was replaced but was never finish reamed to set final headspace as intended. I am surprised no one has mentioned this, but I guess the talk about Greek ammo and 1903s got everyone off track :-)

Another possibility is that the headspace on the OP's rifle was originally correct with the issued bolt, but had the bolt swapped later at some point. It is a well-known "secret" that some arsenal replacement bolts (those marked "B&S" in particular) run towards the tight side, and are sometimes used to correct excessive headspace on rebuilt 1903s. That is a possibility but would only account for a minimal adjustment (a couple of 1000ths of an inch); from my experience the short chamber scenario above is much more likely.

Regardless of the cause, the OP will need to get ahold of some quality headspace gauges to move beyond guesswork.

[John L. Lucci]

Most (all?) arsenal replacement 03-A3 barrels were supplied with short chambers in order to facilitate replacement in the field or depot level. Hence, it is possible that the OP's barrel was replaced but was never finish reamed to set final headspace as intended. I am surprised no one has mentioned this, but I guess the talk about Greek ammo and 1903s got everyone off track :-)

Another possibility is that the headspace on the OP's rifle was originally correct with the issued bolt, but had the bolt swapped later at some point. It is a well-known "secret" that some arsenal replacement bolts (those marked "B&S" in particular) run towards the tight side, and are sometimes used to correct excessive headspace on rebuilt 1903s. That is a possibility but would only account for a minimal adjustment (a couple of 1000ths of an inch); from my experience the short chamber scenario above is much more likely.

Regardless of the cause, the OP will need to get ahold of some quality headspace gauges to move beyond guesswork.

The other possibility the person I bought it from chambered it for a specific 30-06 round. One round that comes to mind that might fit (but I have none on hand to test my theory with) is Federal American Eagle brand which come with a very abruptly pointed fmj bullet compared to M2 ball. Federal AME 30-06 bullet ogive starts further back, almost at the case. What I remember is the guy built it up for his wife as a service rifle. I bought the gun not his story and to me it looked like a minty 1903A3. Never had opportunity to shoot it (Plus I've always had a decided preference for my Garands to start with) until recently.

Plan to take the gun in to see a 'smith when I have funds avaialble..

[Motorcop]

Could be but not too likely...

Rick H.

[John L. Lucci]

Could be but not too likely...

Rick H.


My current thinking is the person I bought it from had more than one A3 and stored the bolts separately and confused the bolts to the two rifles the day he brought the gun to the gun show ..

[Bob S]

I got four of the Greek returns before they were offered up at-large; there was a pre-sale for existing DCM/CMP customers (I've been a DCM customer since the mid-1960's.). Three of the four were short chambered: would not chamber a USGI cartridge and would not close on a GO gauge. I emailed CMP as a courtesy just to let them know and of course they wanted them back. I declined as I had already reamed the chambers to close on the GO gauge and all was well. FWIW, the one that had good headspace as-received was the only one that showed any evidence of use and I'm pretty sure had it's original barrel; the three that definitely had USGI replacement barrels were the ones short chambered. But you can't infer anything from my small sample.

Respectfully,
Bob S.

[John Beard]

I got four of the Greek returns before they were offered up at-large; there was a pre-sale for existing DCM/CMP customers (I've been a DCM customer since the mid-1960's.). Three of the four were short chambered: would not chamber a USGI cartridge and would not close on a GO gauge. I emailed CMP as a courtesy just to let them know and of course they wanted them back. I declined as I had already reamed the chambers to close on the GO gauge and all was well. FWIW, the one that had good headspace as-received was the only one that showed any evidence of use and I'm pretty sure had it's original barrel; the three that definitely had USGI replacement barrels were the ones short chambered. But you can't infer anything from my small sample.

Respectfully,
Bob S.

When I first started working at the CMP in the late 1990's, we only tested for long headspace. At that time, we were dealing mostly with U.S. military surplus rifles from the CMH. Complaints about short headspace were virtually non-existent.

When the Greek rifles arrived and started being sold, short headspace complaints came rolling in. Your experience was not unusual. As a result, we now test all M1903's for both short and long headspace. And we also gauge muzzle wear, throat erosion and grade the bore as "Good Bore" or "Dark Bore" and record the measurements and bore grade on the hanging tag. But the rifles are not sold by grade; it's still luck of the draw, or pick one out in the CMP store.

We have chamber reamers at the CMP. And I use them regularly to lengthen short headspace or clean out dirty chambers. Rifles that won't headspace or have badly corroded bores are broken down for parts and sold as stripped barreled receivers.

J.B.

[John L. Lucci]

When I first started working at the CMP in the late 1990's, we only tested for long headspace. At that time, we were dealing mostly with U.S. military surplus rifles from the CMH. Complaints about short headspace were virtually non-existent.

When the Greek rifles arrived and started being sold, short headspace complaints came rolling in. Your experience was not unusual. As a result, we now test all M1903's for both short and long headspace. And we also gauge muzzle wear, throat erosion and grade the bore as "Good Bore" or "Dark Bore" and record the measurements and bore grade on the hanging tag. But the rifles are not sold by grade; it's still luck of the draw, or pick one out in the CMP store.

We have chamber reamers at the CMP. And I use them regularly to lengthen short headspace or clean out dirty chambers. Rifles that won't headspace or have badly corroded bores are broken down for parts and sold as stripped barreled receivers.

J.B.

The bore on this thing is sharp and shiny and although the bullet test is a ballpark on MW it looks good 31401

[Punch the Clown]

It sounds like the rifle was never throated. A finish reamer also cuts the throat. I find it easier to use pull through reamers. Kind of almost foolproof.

[John L. Lucci]

It sounds like the rifle was never throated. A finish reamer also cuts the throat. I find it easier to use pull through reamers. Kind of almost foolproof.

Spoke with the 'smith and he told me the rifle has never been fired.. Barrel was brand new! He finished reamed it. I'll have it back Monday..

[emmagee1917]

I find it easier to use pull through reamers. Kind of almost foolproof.

Never underestimate the abilities or resourcefulness of a fool.
Chris

[oldtirediron]

I once worked on several 1903A3 rifles that were difficult to chamber a blank round! Also the bolts seem to be real sticky in those rifles! I found that all the rifles had had new barrels torqued on so tight that the barrel tension itself was warping the receiver--The qualification on a 1903 series rifle receiver should be that the rifle barrel be hand tight at the 11 o'clock position, every barrel had been installed without fitting or chamber reaming, after fitting the barrels, and finish reaming them all of the rifles worked fine and the sticky bolt problem, Really it was difficult to close the bolt on each rifle. I also had a late RIA 1903 rifle receiver with a hatcher hole, barrel was so over torqued that a crack was observed from the receiver face to the hatcher hole!

[John L. Lucci]

I once worked on several 1903A3 rifles that were difficult to chamber a blank round! Also the bolts seem to be real sticky in those rifles! I found that all the rifles had had new barrels torqued on so tight that the barrel tension itself was warping the receiver--The qualification on a 1903 series rifle receiver should be that the rifle barrel be hand tight at the 11 o'clock position, every barrel had been installed without fitting or chamber reaming, after fitting the barrels, and finish reaming them all of the rifles worked fine and the sticky bolt problem, Really it was difficult to close the bolt on each rifle. I also had a late RIA 1903 rifle receiver with a hatcher hole, barrel was so over torqued that a crack was observed from the receiver face to the hatcher hole!

In this case it was just a new barrel the receiver was fine.

[SgtSki]

My O3A3 would not close on '72 HXP from the DCM. It closes fine on 1960's vintage Lake City, 1943 EW, 1942 Denver & 1945 FA. Haven't tried any commercial ammo. But I took a HXP '72 that was fired from my M1917 Winchester with a JA 2 grove barrel, which loaded ok, did a full case resizing in a 30 06 die made up a dummy cartridge and it closed just fine. Is it the ammo the chamber or both? Is it safe to shoot just ammo that closes?

[John L. Lucci]

My O3A3 would not close on '72 HXP from the DCM. It closes fine on 1960's vintage Lake City, 1943 EW, 1942 Denver & 1945 FA. Haven't tried any commercial ammo. But I took a HXP '72 that was fired from my M1917 Winchester with a JA 2 grove barrel, which loaded ok, did a full case resizing in a 30 06 die made up a dummy cartridge and it closed just fine. Is it the ammo the chamber or both? Is it safe to shoot just ammo that closes?

Confirmed by the gunsmith that the chamber wasn't finished.