Krag bolt

[Battis]

I have 2 Krags - an 1896 carbine that I've fired, and a recently acquired 1898 rifle that I have not fired yet.
I've inspected the bolt lugs on each through a magnifier and cannot see any problems, but, after reading and researching quite a bit, the best advice is to have the bolt inspected by a gunsmith or machinist to check for hairline cracks.
On Gunbroker and ebay, there's a seller selling new old stock bolts, never used, for around $60 shipped. So, does it make any sense just to buy a new bolt instead of paying for the original bolt(s) to be checked? If they are cracked, I'd have to buy a new bolt anyways.
And, would a new, unused bolt just drop in without fitting?
I shoot mild reloads using Red Dot.
Thanks.

[dave]

Always the headspace issue with a different bolt. I would not worry about it. Gunsmith??? Most are just not experts and doubt they would do anything but look at it like you did. Just cause he calls himself a gunsmith means little, most are just hacks who can run a lathe and milling machine!

[Battis]

I was thinking the same thing about gunsmiths in my area (if I could find one). I'll keep the loads low and keep checking the lugs.

[Dick Hosmer]

Not to say that you should not be aware of what is going on, but, rimmed cartridges are usually nowhere near as sensitive to headspace issues as are rimless ones, simply because there is so much less room for error.

By segregating your fired cases by which gun they were fired in, and/or very slightly tweaking your sizing die set-up, you should be able to produce rounds that are properly supported in the chamber, and still fit nice and snug. If you are fortunate, you may even find a setting that works well for both of your Krags.

The archives here have at least two postings of an attempt to blow up a Krag. They finally succeeded, using a horrendous load, but the zinger is that the locking lug had been removed prior to the test, so "headspace" was never an issue - the safety lug performed as intended, and then some.

[kragluver]

What Dick said...

The Krag has three lugs. Two are safety lugs - the guide rib and the bolt handle.

Also - the best way to check for a cracked lug is: 1) completely disassemble the bolt; 2) dip the bolt head/lug into gasoline; 3) wipe dry; 4) check to see if any gasoline "weeps" out of a hairline crack after you've dried the bolthead. If not, you are good to go. 5) Re-assemble the bolt, oil and shoot.

[Battis]

Thanks for the info. I'll test it with gasoline but it looks pretty good.

[dave]

I would have to disagree with Dick on headspace. A rimmed cartridge headspaces on the rim, not the chamber shoulder as rimless cart. do. If that space between bolt face and barrel face is too great you have excessive headspace and the cart. can slam back against the bolt and also cause the area in front of rim to be unsupported and have a head separation, at least a bulge. Not likely a different bolt would be that far off, but these rifle were made back when specs were not held as close as today. The case forward will just fire form to the chamber, which is not dangerous unless way, way out of specs.
Another thing not mentioned is that the two rifles use different bolts, not important safety wise but you may want to keep them correct. Again, since you use light loads or even service loads---I would not worry.

[psteinmayer]

Incase you're interested, here is the link to the experiment Dick was referring to... where the Krag was destroyed. Pretty interesting reading. http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=251923&page=2

I wouldn't sweat the cracked bolt lug. Take a good look with a magnifying glass and you should be able to see any cracks that are evident. The gasoline trick would be a good idea as well. Stick to well established loads below max, good brass, and proper reloading techniques, and you should never have a problem.

[Battis]

That was an interesting experiment. My little Red Dot loads seem kinda puny and ...safe. Thanks for that link.
I picked up this latest 1898 Krag rifle at an antique shop for $150. The firing pin and rod were missing. I put the firing pin rod and striker from my 1896 in the bolt and it worked fine. The rifling is good, no cracks in the frame or anywhere. A dummy 30-40 round chambers and ejects perfectly. The wood is good. I might have gotten lucky.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/470ec752-3dbf-465a-bebd-eff6729b05b3_zpshlusdhmj.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/3c11719f-0eb5-4ec2-b91b-c07d7b8aeaec_zpsvmonku3f.jpg

[Kragrifle]

Buy a No Go gauge and use it with the stripped bolt. No need to buy a Go gauge since this can be checked with the bullet case itself. Only seen one Krag bolt with the lug sheared off, but always stick to good published data on reloading.

[Battis]

I bought a Field headspace gauge on ebay that's on its way.

[Dick Hosmer]

I don't think Dave and I are far apart at all. Headspace IS important, and if grossly off certainly needs to be addressed. "Nowhere near as sensitive" is not the same "it's OK to ignore".

[Battis]

It took quite a bit of brain strain for me to grasp the simple concept of headspace (it's a noun and a verb which doesn't help). Now it's the actual measuring of headspace that's making me search, research and ask. I was tempted to use the tape method but decided to buy a field gauge. With a Krag, is it a question of a no-go gauge OR a field gauge, or should both be used?

[Dick Hosmer]

If I were to buy only one gauge it would be the no-go. If your rifle accepts that then you should take some sort of action. If your rifle accepts the field gauge - what will you do? I'm guessing (from the tenor of this thread) that you will still have concerns. But, remember that the whole concept of sequential gauging was based on high, and severe, military usage - weekend plinking is unlikely to wear your rifle that much.

Do your cases show any sign of expansion just above the rim? While the Krag is not (despite the test above) the world's strongest bolt action, it does give excellent case support, having a square barrel face relieved only for the extractor, unlike the 1903 where a significant amount of the case head is totally unsupported.

Do your primers protrude upon firing? This is not a foolproof indicator, but should at least be checked.

Basically - especially if you are going to stick with light loads, my feeling (with full credit given to the fact that it is your eyes, and your face) is that you are probably worrying more than necessary.

[Battis]

Good info. Thanks. I'll neck size the cases fired from the carbine and keep those fired in the rifle separate. And check for case expansion. From what I've read, the primers might back out under light loads.

[Parashooter]

Several generations of American shooters have been convinced by bad information that something mysterious and scary called "headspace" should be checked and re-checked on almost any vintage rifle. The truth is less interesting but still worth knowing.

Stripped to its essentials, with a rimmed cartridge like the .30/40, headspace is simply the distance between the face of the bolt and the back of the barrel. It's the space where the "head" (rim) of the cartridge fits when the rifle is loaded.

http://i49.tinypic.com/123ocjo.jpg

Since there has to be some room to allow for varying rim thickness, the headspace is normally a bit more than necessary - giving what we call "end play" or "head clearance", a little extra space so the bolt can close easily, even on the thickest rim allowed.

When a full-power cartridge is fired, a whole string of events occurs.

http://i62.tinypic.com/jfelmx.gif

1. The firing pin shoves the case forward, rim against the breech.
2. The primer detonates. If it's not heavily crimped in place, it backs out, shoving the bolt and barrel as far apart as it can.
3. The thin, forward part of the case expands to fill and grip the chamber while the bullet moves out of the case and down the barrel.
4. The solid case head can't expand and grip the chamber, so it moves rearward, re-seating the primer, stretching the case walls just forward of the head, and stopping when it hits the bolt face.
5. If (and only if) the amount of head movement exceeds the elastic limits of the case, the cartridge separates into two pieces.

New cartridge cases can normally stretch a lot before breaking. Even with a minimum rim .054" thick and maximum "field" headspace of .074", the resultant .020" end play is well within the limits of new brass and it's very unlikely a new case will separate even if the headspace is somewhat more than the field maximum (which is pretty rare, especially in Krags).

OK, but if one does separate we're in deep trouble, right? Not really. It seems the short "cup" left behind the break is pretty good at keeping most of the gas where it belongs. Here's a quote from Hatcher's Notebook -

". . . With good strong actions and moderate pressure loads, and especially if the shooting glasses are worn, this trouble is not particularly dangerous, but is annoying and inconvenient. Very little, if any, gas escapes to the rear, because the back end of the cartridge, which remains in the chamber, acts as a seal. In fact, it is just such short brass cups that the Germans have for years used as the breech seals in their heavy artillery . . .

". . . In my own experimental firing I encountered at least a couple of hundred such separations, and every one of my several thousand students had to experience and correct this situation several times and I never saw enough gas escape to hurt any one. . .

"Our riflemen are used to measuring the headspace of their rifles by thousandths, and are prone to become very much alarmed if the headspace gauges two or three thousandths of an inch more than the normal maximum. This is a good safe attitude to take, but it is something like measuring cordwood with a micrometer. . ."

If you handload for a US Krag with generous headspace, there's no need to mess with bolt swapping - changing the rifle's clearances to yield longer case life. You can control cartridge end play simply by changing technique.

When you fire a new case for the first time, use an improvised spacer ahead of the rim - anything from a precision metal washer to dental floss can work to hold the the cartridge head firmly against the bolt face and eliminate or reduce stretch even if head clearance is significant. Another way of accomplishing the same end is to use a bullet seated out far enough to jam into the lands, "headspacing" on the bullet instead of the case. Such techniques are useful only if the rifle has excess headspace. With normal headspace, initial stretch isn't enough to worry about.

After you've fire-formed your new cases they will fill the chamber fully, stopping on the shoulder just like a rimless cartridge. If you neck size, you'll have zero "headspace". If you have to full length size, adjust the die so the cases chamber with just a bit of resistance in the last few degrees of bolt rotation. Cases fitted this way and fired with moderate loads can last for dozens of loading cycles.

[Battis]

That is, hands down, the best, informative explanation I've seen. That little dim light in my head just came on fully. If I see it, I can understand it. Thanks for the info and the visual.

[dave]

For 150 you stole it! Don't you feel guilty?

[Battis]

It's funny, but that's exactly what I paid for the 1896 carbine. They sold it as a cut-down rifle (different store) but info I got here confirmed that it was a carbine.
There's a firearms auction next weekend in Maine, about 2 hrs from me, that I have to stay away from.
http://poulinantiques.auctionflex.com/showlots.ap?co=23431&weid=59033&weiid=0&lso=lotnumasc&pagenum=1&lang=en&SkipTo=#1

I searched the auction for Krags:
http://poulinantiques.auctionflex.com/showlots.ap?co=23431&weid=59033&weiid=0&keyword=Krag&lso=lotnumasc&pagenum=1&lang=En

[butlersrangers]

'Battis': Nice buy on the model 1898 Krag. You should be able to find a Striker, Mainspring, and Striker-Rod, on ebay (even) for about $40 total. Have fun! (Let us know if you have trouble finding parts).

[Battis]

I bought the parts from http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/krag.aspx
$40.95 shipped.

[Battis]

I removed the barrel and frame from the stock and soaked the frame in a citrus degreaser in a bucket in my back yard. The only part I removed was the sideplate. I scrubbed the bore with this and Hoppes, and it really came clean (still needed some work).
RIFLE BORE CLEANER
MIL-CB-372B & AM2
6850-224-6657
SEABOARD MFG LABS INC
Sept 1968 lot c1131
DSA-640-69-D-0282
GEORGE SENN INC M
I slugged the bore and came up with approx. .308 - .309. I put the gun back together and realized that the ejector was missing (the pin had backed out). It was somewhere in my back yard. I crawled around the grass like a madman but found nothing. Then I went out, in the dark, with a big round magnet in a mesh laundry bag, and dragged the bag around. About two minutes into the search I heard a clink - sure enough, the ejector was on the magnet.
Today I loaded up 12 rounds with .308 175 grs GC cast bullets and about 9.5 grs of Red Dot. The rounds chambered, fired and ejected perfectly. I gonged the gong at 100 yds every time, and hit a softball sized rock at 100 yds easily. That load is very light - it was like shooting a heavy .22. I'll probably go up to The Load - 13 grs Red Dot, and maybe try a bigger bullet (I use the .312 185 gr bullet sized to .311 for the carbine).
Shooting cleaned the bore out a lot more.
Nice rifle.

[psteinmayer]

Congrats on the great shooting! Now we gotta get you to Camp Perry for the National Vintage Rifle Match, LOL!

[Battis]

For what it's worth - neither the carbine or the rifle bolt would close on the Field headspace gauge.

[butlersrangers]

That is a good thing. (Personally, I think the 'field' gauge is the most useful for the Krag). It's good practice to always examine cartridge cases after firing, but, it doesn't appear you have any issues.