45 ACP primer sizes???

[Dave in NGA]

I haven't loaded any 45's in many years. So after a match I was policing brass and came across some Federal and Winchester brass with small pistol primer sizes. Is this stuff reloadable? Why the small primer sizes? Or should I just toss them out? TIA

[edpm3]

Absolutely reloadable. Don't know why some manufacturers go with small primers for 45 ACP, but for some people, it does eliminate the need for large pistol primers. For the rest of us, it means carefully sorting empty .45 cases so we don't end up trying to jam a LP primer into a SP pocket.

[Tuna]

I may be wrong on this but I think originally the small pistol primers were used for ammo that had no lead at all. None in the primer and no exposed lead from the bullet of any kind. If Ray comes around he may be able to shed some light on this.

[raymeketa]

Many handgun cartridges have a history of being loaded with both small and large primers. The 38 Special and the 357 Magnum are the 2 best known. The 45 ACP was originally loaded with a special size primer, just a little smaller in size than LP, to make sure the cases were not primed with LR primers. But most have been standardized as either SP or LP. . . Until recently.

Tuna nailed it. The small primers found in some of today's handgun cartridges are part of the "Green" generation. Lead-free, Non-Toxic, etc. Orginally, the green primers used Diazodinitrophenol, as the the impact-sensitive ingrediant, replacing lead styphnate. By now, it's probably been replaced with something having an even longer name.

[joem]

"The 45 ACP was originally loaded with a special size primer, just a little smaller in size than LP, to make sure the cases were not primed with LR primers."

Surprised that someone else has knowledge of this. A friend had 1K of these that I modified to take LP so he could load them. Good brass.

[raymeketa]

Us collectors know a lot of stuff. Most of it is trivial with not a lot of useful value.:icon_rolleyes:

Here's a box of the smaller sized LP primers. As you can see, they were still being used into the late 1940s.

Ray
http://i61.tinypic.com/14jumiu.jpg

[Sunray]

Winchester brass with small pistol primer sizes started out as their NT(Non-Toxic) primer brand. They said the brass was not reloadable, at the time. Instead of saying they weren't releasing NT primers to reloaders. Regular small pistol primers work just fine. Only issue is if you mix NT cases with regular cases.
"...Most of it is trivial with..." Yep. Hard thing being a fountain of useless information. Worse if you work with 20 something's who think they know everything. Telling 'em their education is lacking shuts 'em up quickly though. snicker.

[psteinmayer]

I have a box of 50 rounds of Fiocchi .45 ACP brass with SP primers. I have so much other brass that I never added it to my reloading supply. I'll hang on to them though... just in case.

[emmagee1917]

I reload both behind 5.3 grains of Win 231 . Can't tell any difference , work the same through M1911s , M1917s , M1928A1s , M1A1s , M50s , M55s , M3s , M3A1s .
Nice to be able to use whatever size primer I can buy. I usually take out an ammo can or two of one primer size so as to not have to sort them . I use a RCBS hand primer , so not a big deal if a piece of range brass gets mixed in . Many reloaders don't want to deal with two sizes , I've received lots of free , once fired brass that way.
Chris

[Timberwolf]

I load both, and use the same powder charge. I've noticed no velocity change between either.

The SP brass is prefered by revolver shooters. I use them at lost brass matches.

[joem]

I don't save the ones with small primers. They don'r really work well in my 650 so they go to the scrap bucket.

[mikld]

Several years ago, when small primed 45 ACP brass started showing up for reloaders, I read an article in a gun rag about them (Originally intended for "NT" ammo). The author compared several loads, identical except for the primer and shot them across a chrony. Results were, on an average, the small primed loads were approx. 20-25 fps slower than the large primed loads (many loads were nearly identical velocity).

[S.B.]

Back to one of the original question, Why were these introduced when LP primers has been the standard for so long?
Steve

[emmagee1917]

They had a small primer production line going for clean indoor range loads in the .38 and 9mm . It was cheeper to make SP .45 cases for that than opening a LP production line .
Chris

[S.B.]

emagee1917, how are SPP greener than LPP? I personally, don't see the logic in your statement? IIRC, I was taught in lead abatement class lead poisoning only effects children under the age of 8(for the most part). How many children 8 or younger do you see on indoor ranges? By the way where did you get this information from?
Steve

[Major Tom]

Like JOEM said, I scrap the SP cases. Why worry about it?

[emmagee1917]

It's about the money , that's all , follow the money .
You have a line of " better , safer " indoor ammo . You use a totally copper cased round and a special primer mix to create less lead in the air.
It begins to catch on in your 38spl and 9MM product line .
You want to add .45 loads into your mix .
To add a separate " green" LP line into your mix will cost you "X" amout of dollars .
To add SP sized .45 cases into your mix will add "Y" dollars to doing your business.
The "Y" amount is far less than the "X" amount while giving you the increased sales of the new product AND makes your existing SP green production line more efficent as production on that increases due to greater production for the .45 .
Could they have MADE a green LP primer ? Of course they could have , but that's not the point .
The info did not come from one place , you have to get the dots and then connect them.
Chris

[S.B.]

Again, where are you getting this info from? Do you work for an ammo manufacturer that does this? Who, exactly, are you referring to? Which company?
Steve

[Tuna]

It was Winchester that started it and as Chris said it was cheaper to use the small pistol primers already in use then to start using the compound without lead in the large pistol line. Note the normal large pistol primers were still in use in the larger caliber rounds like the .44's and .45 long Colt. It was a great propaganda move too just to try and increase sales and it went along with the TMJ bullets so no lead when fired indoors. That is really all it was for the no lead indoors.

[Parashooter]

Again, where are you getting this info from? Do you work for an ammo manufacturer that does this? Who, exactly, are you referring to? Which company?
Steve
It's elementary logic, working back from the anomaly of small-pistol primers found where we expect large-pistol - "get the dots and then connect them."

[PhillipM]

emagee1917, how are SPP greener than LPP? I personally, don't see the logic in your statement? IIRC, I was taught in lead abatement class lead poisoning only effects children under the age of 8(for the most part). How many children 8 or younger do you see on indoor ranges? By the way where did you get this information from?
Steve

If I shot at an indoor range with any frequency, I'd get tested.

Massad Ayoob - "I'd rather forage food in a toxic waste dump than regularly shoot an indoor range."

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKs8vir4_6k