Small Based Dies

[M1CHAZZ]

Going to start reloading all the LC/HXP 30-06 brass I have. Going to be shot through my 1903a3/ Garand in matches.
was told maybe to use small based dies. Have regular full length dies. Was told small based are better for feeding? Also told to watch the length&
trim the cases. How far can I let these cases go before I trim? Picked up a Gracey trimmer years ago set up for .223; Can it be easily converted to 30-06? Never did receive instructions with it. Anyone have experience with one? Also told to reduce powder by 1 gr. because of This Mil. brass???

Thanx
Chuck

[joem]

I use a Dillon power trimmer and I trim my .30-06 cases to min data dims. I have only used FL sizing dies so I can't comment on sm based dies.

[PhillipM]

I have never used small based dies and have never had a problem.

I now use RCBS X dies which only require one trimming, which is good, because I hate trimming.

[BudT]

I reload for my M1 and have always used a standard FL die and without any feeding problems. If your convinced that you need to use a small base then by all means use it.

[psteinmayer]

I've been reloading M2 Ball brass (LC, HXP, PS, IK, etc.) for many years with standard Lee 30-06 dies and never experienced a problem. I also use the Lee case length trimmer with great success.

One good piece of advice I can give you is to get a set of RCBS Swaging dies. The LC brass has crimped primers, and the HXP has staked primers. You must swage these crimps or you can't properly seat new primers without damaging the primer cup. Some loaders will use a reamer to remove the crimps, but you must be very careful doing this or you'll remove too much metal and the integrity of the primer cup could be compromised. The RCBS swaging die is used in your press like any other die, and takes all of the guess work out of removing the crimps!

[Timberwolf]

SB dies in an autoloader is a good idea for guaranteed feeding. I use SM dies for my bolt guns too.

[swede49]

IMHO. Seems like you would not need to small base or full length resize rounds fired in your O3A3, but only neck size if those cases are to be reloaded for firing again only in that rifle. For the Garand resizing to factory specs is probably best for feeding reliability, and I have used RCBS FL for years without a glitch.

Small base resizing seemed to be a necessity for my S&W M&P 15 and my 300 Savage Remington Model 81.

As far as trimming goes, if I do it I go to min trim length, but if a case is still shorter than max length I do not trim. Use LE Wilson Case trimmer, simple and consistent/accurate.

:usa2:

[fguffey]

Going to start reloading all the LC/HXP 30-06 brass I have. Going to be shot through my 1903a3/ Garand in matches.


Thanx
Chuck

You are going to shoot your reloading ammo in a 1903A3 or you are going to shoot your reloaded ammo in a Garand? Then when it comes to the Garand it had three different chambers. In the beginning 30/06 ammo was designed to be shot in everything with a 30/06 chamber. It was understood from the beginning the Garand was a semi autoloader; meaning the 30/06 Garand chamber was larger in diameter at the base by as little as .000025", most claim the old guys could not hold tolerances that close.

I have small base dies, I have BAR dies for Browning Automatic Rifles, I do not use them but I have them just in case. And then there was the 'match chamber'. I would measure the diameter of the chamber first and then I would measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face before starting.

F. Guffey

[NuJudge]

I have found a Small Base die necessary for HXP brass in a aftermarket NM conditioned Garand. If I did not use a Small Base die, I did not get free chambering, and risked out-of-battery explosion. I have never found a Small Base die necessary for any other .30-'06 brass.

Your reloading manual will tell you how long your brass can get before you need trimming. Virtually always, .30-'06 brass needs trimming after the first firing, as it will be well over maximum. You mention you have a Gracey trimmer, and ask if it is convertible to caliber .30, and I believe the answer is "yes", and while you are converting calibers think about buying a cutter for it from Giraud, such that it will not just trim to length, but also chamfer inside & outside at the same time.

I have the RCBS X-Die for several calibers, but have not used them yet. The responses I have seen in discussions are that they do eliminate every trimming after the first one.

[Jim in Salt Lake]

I full length size my brass, it's all HXP 68 and LC 68. I shoot it in two different 1903s and an M1. I've got about 800 rounds of brass and process it all at once by headstamp. I"ve never used small based dies and don't have any feeding issues. All of these rifles have military chambers, no tight match chambers. Since you already have a FL size die, why don't you load up a bunch, go to the range and see what happens? You can always buy small base dies if you need to. To get rid of the military primer crimp, I used an RCBS swaging tool for the LC brass. For the HXP, I used a case mouth reamer to remove the three little stake marks, very easy and seating primers was like new brass. For trimming, I just got a Giraud tri way trimmer: http://www.giraudtool.com/Tri%20Way%20Trimmer.htm You chuck the trimmer in your electric drill, insert each case mouth into the tool and hold it there until the bearing stops moving. It not only trims, but also chamfers and deburrs. I think it took me an hour to hour and a half to trim 800 cases.

As for loads and military brass, like any other load, start low and work up. For my bolt guns, I've been using Sierra 125gr Matchkings with light loads at around 2300fps. Recoil is way down and those flat based bullets are very accurate at 100 or 200 yards. They don't move you around in rapid fire either. For your Garand, I'd stick to proven Garand loads, they don't like loads lighter or heavier.

[kcw]

If your full length resized & trimmed brass poses no feeding problems I can see no advantage in going to a small base die. On the other hand, going to a small base die under such circumstances obviously amounts to an unnecessary "working" of the brass, which may result in a shortened lifespan of the cases. My preference to work the brass as little as possible and yet obtain flawless function. If neck sizing will accomplish that end..DO IT, If partial sizing will accomplish that...DO It, If full length sizing is required...DO IT; and finally, if all else has failed, use a small base die, which I've never had to do.

[DaveL]

I have 3 sets of small base dies in 5.56, 308 and '06. I've had them for years and never needed them. Not once. And I've loaded literally thousands of rounds of those 3 cals. for 10s of different rifles.

[Sunray]

OP is nearly a year old.
SB dies for an M1 Rifle is totally unnecessary though. Guarantees nothing whatsoever. SB's are not required for any semi either. Unless they are. As daft as that sounds. Some AR's need 'em, but most semi's do not.

[bigedp51]

We live in a plus and minus manufacturing world and no two chambers and dies are exactly the same. I have a Lee full length .223 die that will reduce the case diameter more than my RCBS small base die does. A resized case should be .003 to .005 smaller in diameter than its fired size to give reliable extraction in a semi-auto. This is from Glen Zediker's book "Handloading for Competition Making the Target Bigger".

That being said most military chambers are .002 larger in diameter than a standard SAAMI chamber. Meaning a standard full length die should work most of the time "but" some rifles may need a small base die. My AR series .223/5.56 RCBS small base die only make the sized cases .0005 smaller in diameter at the base but size further down the case than my standard RCBS .223 die. When I buy once fired brass they are all sized with a small base die the first time and then a standard die is used.

On Target Product Review: RCBS AR Series Die Set (for 308)
http://www.hawaiireporter.com/on-target-product-review-rcbs-ar-series-die-set-for-308/123

Bottom line, never say never and to be on the safe side having both type dies never hurts anything. Especially if you have brass fired in another firearm.

[fguffey]

We live in a plus and minus manufacturing world and no two chambers and dies are exactly the same.

. My AR series .223/5.56 RCBS small base die only make the sized cases .0005 smaller in diameter at the base but size further down the case than my standard RCBS .223 die. When I buy once fired brass they are all sized with a small base die the first time and then a standard die is used.
.


It would seem reloaders that live in a plus and minus world would learn to measure the difference.


I assume you are talking about the base of the case; if the deck height of the shell holder is .125” the base of the case can not be sized smaller in diameter because the shell holder limits the amount of the case than can be reduce in diameter. That leaves the die; the base of the die has a smaller opening so when we are talking about small base dies we are talking about a die with a small diameter base.

The RCBS dies in the black box are the equivalent of dies that have had the base ground off. A reloader could accomplish the same results if they ground the top of the shell holder to lower the deck height.

Rather than ground the die and or shell holder I use a feeler gage to raise the case head off the deck of the shell holder. I form cases for short chamber by as much as .012”; in the process I reduce the diameter of the case above the extractor and the distance between the shoulder of the case and case head.

F. Guffey

[PhillipM]

Genius! I never thought of that!

[Former Cav]

I have to use small base dies for my AR-15, it has a "match chamber / barrel".
For my M1A (.308 or 7.62 NATO more accurately) I just use full length dillon carbide dies.
I bought a Monadnodnock trimming tools years ago. I posted that info on this web site somewhere.
If you can't find it, email me on the private message with your email address (so no one else gets the address) and I'll send you JPGs and the info.
this tool cuts the overall length, chamfers the ID and OD at the same time. All you need is a bench size drill press or even a power drill and a vise to hold the power drill.
I got the info years ago from a champion (distinguished) NRA highpower shooter

[bigedp51]

The inside of the small base die is smaller in diameter and designed to size further down the case. The small base die is designed to reduce the case to SAAMI minimum dimensions, meaning the die is cut differently than a standard die. Below are two small base dies, the RCBS AR series die and a Redding small base body die and "BOTH" of them size further down the case.


http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/dies003_zpsf9af9a52.jpg

Below is the Redding competition shell holder I use to size my .223/5.56 cases for my AR15 rifles and .003 shoulder bump. As you can see it is a +.004 shell holder and pushes the case into the die .004 "LESS" than the standard shell holder on the right. (.125 vs .129 deck height)

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/shellholders_zps0f9bb695.jpg

The AR Series RCBS dies or any small base die are not shorter or have the base of the die ground down. If the base was ground down you would be pushing the shoulder of the case back too far. I use the same +.004 competition shell holder with both the RCBS small base die and the standard RCBS full length die pictured above. Meaning you do not know what you are talking about fguffey or have even measured the dies you are claiming to be a expert on.

I have a standard Lee .223 full length die and it sizes the base of the case a smaller diameter than my RCBS small base die. And it will push the shoulder back .009 shorter than my GO gauge so we do live in a plus and minus manufacturing world.

Below are the chamber dimensions for .223/5.56 and .308/7.62 chambers, and a look at line "C" at the top of the list will show you the base diameter of the chamber reamers.
So we also live in chamber plus and minus world and dies also vary in size.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/223-556_zpsf4f56449.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/183911_zps5aff5dc9.jpg

[fguffey]

I have a standard Lee .223 full length die and it sizes the base of the case a smaller diameter than my RCBS small base die. And it will push the shoulder back .009 shorter than my GO gauge so we do live in a plus and minus manufacturing world.
]


If any of that is true you have a die that is designed to size a case for a short chamber. Again; I turn my dies into dies that form/size cases for short chambers. No one ever ask ‘WHY?’ and worst they do not understand how. I cut chambers, before I start I want to know the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. For me that has always been easy, I have three different ways of measuring the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. I have started on barrels that were advertised as ‘short chambers’’ how short? When I found the chamber on one barrel was .225” shorter than a minimum length chamber I wanted my money back.

F. Guffey

[bigedp51]

F. Guffey

What wasn't true was what you said about the "RCBS dies in the black box are the equivalent of dies that have had the base ground off". What is true is that small base dies are the same length as a standard die and are cut smaller in inside diameter.

What is even more true is that dies do vary in size, meaning distance to the shoulder and in diameter. What is true is I have seven different type and brand .223 dies and they all vary in size.

Below a Colt 5.56 Field gauge at 1.4736

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspacegauge006_zps3cdabdf4.jpg

Below my adjusted Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge reading the Colt Field gauge.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspacegauge_zps14d3b71f.jpg

Below a Lake City 5.56 case fired in my AR15 carbine.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspacegauge005_zps20685e73.jpg

Below the same case after full length resizing and .003 shoulder bump using the +.004 competition shell holder. If I had used the standard RCBS shell holder the case would have been .007 shorter than the chamber.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspacegauge004_zps4465b7bc.jpg

Below is a new unfired Federal 5.56 M193 cartridge in my gauge and if the standard RCBS shell holder had been used the resized case would have been .002 shorter than a factory loaded round. The cartridge below is .002 shorter than the GO gauge and if I use the Lee die making hard contact with the shell holder the resized case would be .007 shorter than the factory cartridge below.


http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspacegauge002_zpscc227fb8.jpg

There is a reason why I bought the Redding Competition Shell Holders and a reason why Redding made the biggest shell holder a +.010, meaning a deck height of .135

[fguffey]

F. Guffey

There is a reason why I bought the Redding Competition Shell Holders and a reason why Redding made the biggest shell holder a +.010, meaning a deck height of .135

I have the #6 Redding Competition shell holder set. i purchased it because the dealer had a price tag of $5.00 on it. That was 5 shell holders for $1.00 each. Not a problem but three of the shell holders were off by .001" each. I have never used them but I have them just in case. Then there was that part of reloading you missed; that was the time before skip's shims and Redding competition shell holders. I have an Eddystone M1917 with a long chamber. The chamber is .016" longer than a minimum length/full length sized over the counter new ammo. I know, most can not keep up with that but what it means the chamber is .002" longer than a field reject length gage; or .011" longer than a go-gage length chamber. For most that would be a problem but for me it is a matter for sizing cases that are the length of a field reject length gage. Again, for most that is a problem but for me it is a matter of finding a case that is long from the shoulder to the case head.

I use 280 Remington cases when forming cases for the long chamber. The 280 Remington chamber is longer than the 30/06 chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face by .051". I would say "How can a reloader miss? When sizing cases for the long chamber I adjust the die off the shell holder .014" with the companion tool the feeler gage. After sizing the case I have .002" clearance. I could say "the magic .002" but reloaders believe the case has head space and no clue about the difference between head space and clearance.

Back to the .010" and the Redding competition shell holder, my Eddystone has an additional .006", even if I used the Competition shell holder I would have to adjust the die an additional .004" off the shell holder. I use the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head to off set the length of the chamber.

I suggest you get your money back on the Lee die, again, if it exist. I have dies that were made with mistakes. Your claim of the wonders of the small base die, I have small base dies that will keep every case pushed into them. Being one of the few that can measure a die for length and diameter I have had reloaders send me dies with a case stuck in them. I have suggested reloaders learn to measure the inside diameter of the die, so far all I have had are failures because no one has ever found a die that with a reduce diameter.

F. Guffey

[bigedp51]

Our plus and minus manufacturing world below showing resizing die differences.

Are Your Sizing Dies Overworking Your Rifle Brass?
http://www.massreloading.com/dies_overworking_brass.html


http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/overworked_table2_zpsvgj7lnlt.jpg
Table 2 - Inside Diameter Measurements for 5 different sizing dies