Trouble reloading .303

[Rick the Librarian]

I've been starting to reload for several rifle calibers and I've had no trouble with Krag and 7.5mm Swiss. However, I ran into a problem when I went to reload for .303 British, yesterday.

I have Lee dies, including a crimping die. I used Sierra .308 spitzer bullets. I used once-fired PPS brass. Everything seemed to go fine until I looked at the completed cartridges. I could turn the bullets in the cartridges and when I chambered a few sample rounds in my SMLE, any "bump" pushed the bullet in to the brass - obviously, the bullet was too loose. So I pulled all the bullets.

Help me figure out what's wrong:

1) Not the right sized bullets? (maybe need .311?)

2) Some adjustment needed with the dies? (I noticed the bullets "sat" on top of the neck of the brass when I went through the "bullet installation" step, which I assumed was about right)

3) I went through the crimp step and, even though I could see a crimp in the completed cartridges, I could still twist the bullets in the brass.

4) other problems?

I realize that these are not optimum loads for accuracy, just trying to work on my technique.

Thanks in advance!

RtL

[Tuna]

You got it with the first one with the bullets being under sized. Get some that are .311 or larger and you will be fine. And if you can be sure to just neck size the .303 brass as they will last a lot longer. Just keep them separated by which rifle you fire them in.

[Rick the Librarian]

Sort of thought that might be the case. I'll get some .311 bullets and try them.

[JimF]

You got it with the first one with the bullets being under sized. Get some that are .311 or larger and you will be fine. And if you can be sure to just neck size the .303 brass as they will last a lot longer. Just keep them separated by which rifle you fire them in.

Yup . . . .

Your bullets are too small in diameter!

Also . . . .

You might benefit from loading the .303 and the 30-40 Krag using the "Ken Waters method".

I've been using his method for years now, and I believe my cases ARE lasting a bit longer.

It is a bit "labor-intensive" on the first loading, but after that, it's no more trouble than any other neck-sizing operation. --Jim

[Rick the Librarian]

And the "Ken Waters method" is ...?? :)

[JimF]

And the "Ken Waters method" is ...?? :)

Grab a coffee, Rick . . . this will take a while . . . . .

The British .303 chamber is notoriously oversize . . . .especially at the shoulder area!

Take a fired case and hold it next to an unfired case/round.

Notice how the shoulder has moved forward . . . sometimes as much as 1/32"! (Almost looks like a different caliber/cartridge huh?)

When this case was fired, the fire-pin drove the cartridge forward in the chamber 'til the rim stopped on the back of the chamber . . . leaving the shoulder area of the chamber "unoccupied" until ignition, and the consequent filling of this space with the brass case.

In addition, the case head slammed back, against the bolt-face and s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d the sidewall at the web area of the case, because the case body sort-of "welded" itself to the chamber sidewall and the unsupported web area expanded (once again, due to the sloppy chamber dimensions).

This is why the .303 is notorious for head separations and "extra-short" case life in general!!

Ken figured out a way to hold the case "hard and fast" against the bolt face BEFORE ignition . . . thereby lowering the case failures a mite.

Yes, you still get stretching in the shoulder area and you still get web-expansion, but the stretching of the web area (fore and aft) is less. When less, the brass lasts longer!

Remember, the brass is a whole lot softer near the mouth/shoulder area than back at the web/head area!

In order to hold the case/cartridge back "hard" against the bolt-face, and overcome the fire-pin forces at work to push the case forward, BEFORE ignition, Ken expanded the neck area with a larger neck expander than is supplied with the normal .303 British die set.

I use the neck expander for the 8mm Mauser!

After expanding all the necks, of course the cases will NOT enter the .303 chamber, right?

Now I change out the die and install a .303 British "neck-sizing" die (Redding).

Come down the neck a mite until the case will just chamber with a slight resistance of the bolt handle. This is a "try-and-size-a-bit" procedure until the case will chamber.

Now you have a funny-looking case with TWO shoulders!

Load these up and shoot them.

There-after neck-size ONLY . . . .and these cases are "dedicated" to this rifle ONLY!

It's very important to remember that you MUST use VIRGIN cases . . . once-fired cases are NO USE!!

I've had to resort to pulling apart loaded cartridges, when NEW brass was unavailable . . . expand the necks as per Ken's method . . and re-seat the bullets! (Very labor intensive! . . . as is the whole procedure)

Hope you followed this, Rick!

By-the-way . . some Krag chambers are also sloppy, so I use this method on them as well!

Good shooting, --Jim

[Rick the Librarian]

I think I need to get a damp washrag and go lie down in a dark room!! LOL!!

[Rick the Librarian]

Use NEW brass every time you reload? Sounds like the cost of reloading .303 is starting to climb up near just buying new ammo every time. :(

I'll have to read (and re-read) your post again, Jim - a lot of "meat" to digest!

[John Sukey]

One does forget that the British army was not into reloading fired brass.:icon_lol:

I have more than one Enfield and keep the brass seperate.

[Rick the Librarian]

No, this is PPU commercial brass - the British Army stuff (at least what I have) is Berdan.

[emmagee1917]

Use NEW brass every time you reload? Sounds like the cost of reloading .303 is starting to climb up near just buying new ammo every time. :(

I'll have to read (and re-read) your post again, Jim - a lot of "meat" to digest!

No , Rick . You must use new brass the first time to form the cases to THAT one rifle . You then neck size the brass after that , but that brass must only be used in that rifle each time .

[Rick the Librarian]

OK, that makes more sense! Thanks!

[Parashooter]

Take some of this advice with a grain of salt, Rick. Unless your .303 has excess headspace, ordinary neck sizing will do a fine job of extending case life. If headspace is excessive, there are easier ways to control initial stretch than the secondary shoulder method described above.

When you fire a new case for the first time, use an improvised spacer ahead of the rim - anything from a precision metal washer to dental floss can work to hold the the cartridge head firmly against the bolt face and eliminate or reduce stretch even if excess space is significant. Such techniques are useful only if the rifle has excess headspace. With normal headspace, initial stretch isn't enough to worry about.

http://i43.tinypic.com/e5s8es.jpg

After you've fire-formed your new cases they will fill the chamber fully, stopping on the shoulder just like a rimless cartridge. If you neck size, you'll have zero "headspace". If you have to full length size, adjust the die so the cases chamber with just a bit of resistance in the last few degrees of bolt rotation.

See http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/3361/Headspace-101-for-30339s for more details.

[Art]

First, what is that THING at the top of the page.

As John Sukey says, military organizations could care less about reloading, their brass is all scrapped and they shoot only new ammo so that's that. His point is that reloading was not an issue when the manufactured the rifles.

Now to the matter at hand. Wartime Enfields had more generous chambers than peacetime Enfields. My 1917 mfg Lee Enfield No I Mk IIi* which I got fresh from the arsenal after an FTR in 1953 was all matching and had perfect headspace. Spent cases from this rifle are really distorted. Cases from my No 4 Mk 2 built in 1955 which I got straight from the mummy wrap, truly new old stock produces spent cases that look just like the new ones in the box. So that part varies. Since the stuff I reload goes through two rifles I full length resize and only reload a case once. This is practical because I have a caboodle of .303 British Brass, and because I only shoot them a few times a year. If you have one rifle, or keep brass separate for each rifle you can neck resize and get a few more reloads per case.

.303 bullets are nominally .310. Remington bullets I understand are about .3105, Hornadays are .312 as are Woodleighs and Sierra's are .311. They all work about the same in my rifles but maybe I'm just not a good enough shot to tell the difference. The muzzle on my No4 Mk2 measures "2" on a .308 gauge but it's brand new for all practical purposes so if you have a rifle with a bore that tight I think you could make .308 bullets work if you could seat them. The biggest problem I have with bullets for reloading in my Enfields is finding them. I had a bunch of very geriatric Keynoch commercial Mk VII ball. Half were cupro-nickel bullets and half were copper bullets. I pulled and reloaded those and they proved to be some of the most accurate I found in .303. If I find any more old nasty Mk VII at a good price I'm buying it and pulling the bullets!!

So Enfields can be a bit touchy and brass life isn't real long but if you can find the bullets it can be rewarding.

[Rick the Librarian]

Thanks, Parashooter ... I was starting to think about going back to reloading .45s and .38s where things were simple!! :)

[joem]

I had the same problem with .303. I have 2, one 1942 English and the other Idian built in 1967. I retired the English one as I would only get 3 reloads out of it even with neck sizing. Indian one must be tighter and I find once fired brass once in a while at the range.

[emmagee1917]

If you want to try .308 bullets you might try replacing the expander plug with one out of a 30-30 , .308 , 30-06, etc. die . Worst case would be neck sizing only in a shortish .30 die after resizing .
Chris

[Liam]

The PPU stuff is good. I bought several hundred a couple years ago. Rick, I'd suggest slugging your bore to see where you stand with your .303 rifle. Here is a tutorial (if you need):

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSlug.htm

The above link is for slugging a Mosin Nagant, but the process is the same. Once you know what your land/groove parameters are, you can shop for appropriate bullet diameter- .308, .309, heck, Hornady even makes a .3105 bullet, so there are choices out there to fit your need.

[Parashooter]

Folks, please be leery of those bore-slugging instructions. Two big problems -
1. Fishing sinkers are unknown alloy, may be too hard and might have grit inclusions to scratch bore. (Buckshot, designed for barrels, is safer.)
2. A stack of wooden dowels can break up and wedge inside the barrel and make a real mess that's sometimes very tough to remove.

Here's a safer way, using a short wooden dowel only for getting started, then finishing with a good steel rod -

http://i54.tinypic.com/2i27bmf.jpg

[psteinmayer]

I might be coming to this party a bit late... but .303 uses the same bullet as the 7.7x58 mm Arisaka round, which is a .312 dia bullet. This is because the Japanese designed the ballistic characteristics of the Type 99 around the .303 Enfield rifle. Hornady makes a good 174 gr FMJ BT bullet which is designed for both the .303 British and 7.7 rounds. They are available from Midway and Cheaper than Dirt (I just ordered and received 200 from Midway two weeks ago).

[dogtag]

I shoot nothing but my own cast bullets @ 314.
With my homemade lube - no leading.

[Rick the Librarian]

I think I'll start with .311 FMJ bullets and see where that leads me. Parashooter, what type (size) of buckshot is that you use?

[Parashooter]

0, 00, 000 ok.

http://www.dto.com/img/managed/2976.jpg

[Rick the Librarian]

I don't have access to any place I can get these (I assume, if you can get to a place that can supply reloading supplies for shotguns, they would have some of these?), so I have some .311 FMJ bullets I'll start with.

[Parashooter]

Local gun shop or rural hardware store - about $5 - 45 pellets in 5 waterproof containers, bonus powder, primers, wads. :icon_rolleyes:

http://www.grafs.com/uploads/product-picture/preview/19962.jpg

[psteinmayer]

LOL too funny Para :icon_lol:

[Rick the Librarian]

Not to keep throwing up roadblocks, but didn't some localities outlaw lead shot?

[Parashooter]

Seems you don't care much for the buckshot idea. OK, do you have any reasonably soft .38 pistol bullets? (Most commercial lead pistol bullets are swaged or cast from fairly soft alloy.) A little tougher than buckshot, but still safer than fishing sinkers.

[psteinmayer]

I think Lead Shot is only banned in wetlands (i.e. hunting geese and ducks)... but I could be wrong about that.

[Art]

I think Lead Shot is only banned in wetlands (i.e. hunting geese and ducks)... but I could be wrong about that.

You are correct. Buckshot is perfectly legal for taking bucks almost everywhere.

Of course if one has a muzzle wear gauge for .308 rifles the "2" equals about .310 bore diameter and the "3" is .311, more or less. As I said my NOS No 4 Mk 2 measured just under "2" on my CMP muzzle wear gauge which means it would be fine with .308 bullets. In fact both of my Enfields easily pass the "bullet test" with .308 bullets.

So Rick, if you have a .308 M/W gauge you can use it, which would actually be a bit easier than slugging the barrel.

[Rick the Librarian]

Got the double buckshot and the slugging went well. Problem was in the measuring. I used calipers and seem to get measurements between .304 and .312. I'm assuming the .312 may be the correct measurement? I used Parashooter's diagrams.

Maybe you could all send me donations enough to buy "store bought" ammo!! And I'd agree in return to never bring this subject up again!! LOL!

[Rick the Librarian]

The barrel is on a No. 4 Mk. I - two groove barrel.

[Parashooter]

No special tricks are needed with a 2-groove slug. Just measure directly in two places 90 degrees apart - major diameter is "groove", minor one is "bore".


". . . if you have a .308 M/W gauge you can use it, . . ."
Horsefeathers! A "M/W" gauge tells us only about the bore diameter. We want to know the groove diameter when selecting cast bullets.


"Buckshot is perfectly legal for taking bucks almost everywhere."
In many places, buckshot is also legal for taking does.:eusa_shhh:

[JimF]

. . . .Maybe you could all send me donations enough to buy "store bought" ammo!! And I'd agree in return to never bring this subject up again!! LOL!

Geeez, Rick . . . .

A few years ago, it was Grandma's afghan that caused a ruckus . . . . Now it's your .303 Enfield!!!

What else do you have in store for us?? --Jim

[Rick the Librarian]

Geeez, Rick . . . .

A few years ago, it was Grandma's afghan that caused a ruckus . . . . Now it's your .303 Enfield!!!

What else do you have in store for us?? --Jim

Wouldn't YOU like to know!! :)

(I'll try slugging two other Enfields later today and see what kind of luck I have.)

[psteinmayer]

Don't slug em... Just give em a good slap, unless they deserve it!

[S.B.]

Wheww, this thread has me rethinking reloading for my SMLE. First of all, I don't put much faith into measurements of any round ball for bore sizing(far too easy to not be square with the axis of the piece measured).
Steve

[lyman]

Got the double buckshot and the slugging went well. Problem was in the measuring. I used calipers and seem to get measurements between .304 and .312. I'm assuming the .312 may be the correct measurement? I used Parashooter's diagrams.

Maybe you could all send me donations enough to buy "store bought" ammo!! And I'd agree in return to never bring this subject up again!! LOL!

had I seen this thread earlier, I would have suggested you go over to Cheaper than Dirt and get some of the HXP they were selling very reasonably,,,