Original 03A4 with possibly original installed M73B1 scope

[cplnorton]

I found a A4 that looks to be all original. And the circumstances of the rifle and the condition lend me to believe the scope is either the original one put on in 1943 when new, or at the very least it left the military with this scope on it. Otherwise I do not think this is a CMP or DCM rifle sold without a scope and one was later added.

The scope is a 2A variant. Marked M73B1 on the plate with a serial of 10,809. It does not have the screws on the knobs.

The serial of the rifle is 3419099 with a 7/43 barrel.

Could a 2A variant M73B1 be original to a 3.41 serialed rifle? Just looking at this thing, I almost think it was the one that was put on the rifle in 1943. I do know it's impossible to say for sure, I'm just curious if it's even possible it's original to that serial range.

[jgaynor]

[snip
Could a 2A variant M73B1 be original to a 3.41 serialed rifle? Just looking at this thing, I almost think it was the one that was put on the rifle in 1943. I do know it's impossible to say for sure, I'm just curious if it's even possible it's original to that serial range.

yes its possible. A long shot but possible.

[cplnorton]

Here are some pics of it.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903A4%20Original/P1240732_zpscbmren5n.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903A4%20Original/P1240843_zpszxp6o636.jpg




http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903A4%20Original/P1240833_zpsfmb9nbvh.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903A4%20Original/P1240770_zpsjvdmxuh1.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903A4%20Original/P1240775_zps3qhvwmza.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903A4%20Original/P1240752_zpscklvbjkn.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903A4%20Original/P1240743_zpslg1mzxia.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903A4%20Original/P1240685_zpsgkhdxht2.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903A4%20Original/P1240838_zpsl0vig851.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903A4%20Original/P1240826_zpsrssbfqae.jpg

[cplnorton]

I had a heck of a time breaking free the screw that holds the scope on. It hadn't been removed in a long, long time. I finally had to put the barreled action in a padded vice, then take a huge Snap On screw driver with a wrench on it to get it to break free.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903A4%20Original/P1240637_zpsiwjkxlpr.jpg

The other thing that really made me think this might be original. The barrel is the original barrel for the rifle. But it swallows my CMP guage like it's nothing. I sort of suspect this rifle was either taken at the end of the war or someone purchased it. I've seen at least one 03A4 with a receipt from 1946. And as bad as this barrel is, I would suspect it would have been rebuilt it if stayed around after the war for very long.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903A4%20Original/P1240847_zpstyvlvep6.jpg

[BlitzKrieg]

Considering the nice condition of this rifle, I am at a loss for words how its muzzle has that much wear.

I'd not be prone to believe steel ram rod as the culprit. Nor that anyone (in the 50s ,60s) constructed the rifle of correct parts and slapped on a barrel like that.

So I have to ask: is that muzzle counter bored ? Would a govt. arsenal do a counter bore to a rusted muzzle that cosmolene failed to protect ?

This is one of those rifles I'd rebarrel with a orig. military barrel and not worry about the debate of "original vs correct " 03a4.

Thanks for the fine pictures too , nice rifle indeed.

[jgaynor]

Very nice A4!. I wouldn't be too concerned about the gauge reading. Not really material to a collectors item. If it bothers you i would 1. first try another gauge if you can borrow one. The 2. get some decent ammo and see how it shoots. You might want to get some 1" Redfield rings and install a modern scope to save your M73B1.

[cplnorton]

No she has just been shot a lot. :) She's never been messed with. But looking at the rifle in person it probably looks a fuzz better in the pics than in person. Because when you hold it in your hands, she is worn. But it's all honest wear.

Honestly I will probably never shoot it. Out of all the firearms I own. I've only ever shot a small handful of them. Just not so much a shooter as a collector.

Jim, I'm going to send you a PM too, so look for it.

[BlitzKrieg]

Recommendation: since 03A3 barrels can still be bought , in GI wrap in mint condition, go get one
while they can be had. Then...all bases are covered.

This is a very nice rifle as said. I will note, were it mine, I'd get a Gibbs/ Creedmore / etc etc vendor 03A4 repro for shooting and save this rifle from wear & tear.

[cplnorton]

Well a 03A3 barrel and a A4 are a little different. The A3 barrels were parked with a front sight on them, and the A4 barrels weren't. So if you get a A3 barrel and remove the front sight, that area would be in the white and stick out like a sore thumb on the rifle. And then the A4 barrels also have a punch mark on the underside of the barrel, where the A3's don't.

This rifle would bring a premium over a rebuilt A4 because of how original it is. I'm not sure how many non-rebuilds A4's are out there, but I doubt very many. I know Johnny Peppers has a really nice one, and then that one that John Beard helped with that was like new. And I've heard of maybe a few more. The Majority are refinished and rebuilt. I know personally I've been looking for one for about 7 years now and finally just found this one. But I wanted one that looked original with a un-sanded stock.

But here is a pic of a Greek HXP round, and then a pic of the punch mark on the underside of the barrel. It say it's a 3.5 to 4ME somewhere around there. I've always personally thought that other factors determine accuracy more than the ME guage. Heck I almost guarantee it can still shoot better than I can anyways. :)

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903A4%20Original/P1240848_zpsfvcphzw8.jpg

[jgaynor]

Cplnorton, Thanks for posting all the excellent pictures.

Could you please confirm a few details for my database please?

1. Is there a "P" proof mark on the pistol grip or wrist (in a circular surround)?
2. Is the barrel a 2 groove or a four groove?

If it were mine I would not change a thing.

Regards,

Jim

[cplnorton]

Jim, It has a 2 groove barrel and here is a pic of the Circle P.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903%20Marine%20sniper%20rifle/P1240875_zps1ae6lomr.jpg

[jgaynor]

Thanks. :1948:

[chuckindenver]

observations,
stacking swivel band is a refinished replacement,, {rounded edges} and signs of wire wheel.
scope has been taken apart at some time, no tar sealent around the edge of the data plate.
rust on the screw, is likely from someone other then the military with red iodine.. old trick to keep the screw tight..
as nice as the rifle is, i dont think the scope and rings are original to the rifle..
the pitting and wear dont match the rifle..

[chuckindenver]

tar sealent M73B1

[rebound]

And then there is the cut-out for the bolt, which does not appear to be of the correct style for the date of issue..

[cplnorton]

I think the early ones were cut by hand. But unless I'm mistaken and Jim will correct me if I'm wrong. :) By this serial range they were just the normal regular cut with 2 sweeping cuts or however they describe it.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903A4%20Original/P1240876_zpsmw4hl2ho.jpg


And I almost think it might be the lousy pic under by bright photo lights on the front swivel being refinished. I'm not seeing really any sings in person of it being refinished. I think it's just my photo lights drown out stuff and change colors on items.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903A4%20Original/P1240880_zps3s6sdbxh.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903A4%20Original/P1240880_zps3s6sdbxh.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903A4%20Original/P1240879_zpsomfg6tod.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903A4%20Original/P1240881_zpsw4wctuqz.jpg

[cplnorton]

You do have my interest peaked though on the pitch. I haven't heard of that before. I only have ever seen one A4 I thought was probably original and that is the one Johnny Peppers has. And I don't think that one had tar on it. And I know I never saw pics of the one that sold on gunbroker earlier this year that was supposed to be NIB, I only heard about it. So I never caught that one to even notice.

Was that something that was supposed to be done at the factory at Remington? Or was it more a field mod or something done at the armory depots later on? I can sort of see if as a field mod in a wet environment by a armorer or something, but I sort of don't see it happening at Remington. I know I have field reports of guys pooring water out of their Weavers every morning in some of the documents I've seen. So to me it makes more sense it was a field mod or something at least in my crazy brain. :)

But you think it was done at Remington on them when new?

[chuckindenver]

i have owned a few M73B1s with the tar seal, and have seen a few more on other rifles..
the first 1000 A4s would have a hand cut pre war C stock.. others would be double mill cut

[jgaynor]

Cpl Nortons rifle was probably about the 10,000th A4 assembled which puts it about halfway thru the first order. It was likely assembled in September of 1943. So not an early A4.

The bolt notch is an original Keystone manufacture. Keystone supplied stocks to Remington and as spare parts.

The serial number on Cpl Nortons rifle (10,809) is an early 2nd Variation(no resettable zero scale), tracks to within about 1500 units of the rifle's sn. On the other hand the picture of the M73B1 with the tar on the data plate is a 3rd Variation (sn's run from about 30,000 to 36,000). Several 3rd variation scopes have shown up on auction sites in the last few years still packed in the original, sealed Weaver cartons. The dates on the cartons, that I have seen, have been in the spring of 1945 - well after A4 production ceased. For this reason and others my personal opinion is that no M1904A4 rifles were equipped with 3rd variation scopes at Remington. Those that entered service did so as spare parts somewhat later.

I will take a look thru my M73B1 pics and see if any earlier variants have the sealant on the data plate. If the tar was applied the most likely place where it would have been done is at Weaver (IMO).

[Johnny P]

I am still having photo posting issues, or I would post the photo of the scope on mine. No oozing sealant on my scope, and the electro penciled serial number is still in the white.

My rifle was bought from a retired Navy dentist who said he bought it out of Benecia either before or at the time he retired.

[jgaynor]

johnny, I use photo bucket but i just took a look at tinypic.

It looks like you can upload photos from a file/folder on your PC to a folder/album of "images" on tiny pic.

From there just select the "images" tab from the toolbar at the top of the screen.

Click on the picture you want and you should get a larger image. On the left side of the screen is a box entitled "Grab Your Code" - Select the box entitled "Direct link for layouts" - Click on the box then paste the picture' s link into the message reply box on the forum.

People who see your response will have to click on the link to see the image. Doing it that way gets you around the image size restrictions built in the forum's own attachment feature.

Regards

Jim

[cplnorton]

I was thinking of something this morning. If my scope had a sealant around that plate wouldn't it have covered up the Serial No rollstamp and the electropenciled serial? My dataplate covers up a tiny bit of the serial no rollstamp already, so I don't see how any sealant could have been put on it without covering this up.

I'm not sure who electropenciled the serial on the scopes. I imagine either Weaver or the military. But if Weaver did it they probably would have put the rollstamp and electropencil down further on the tube. And say the military did it, it would for sure have never had any sealant on it because it's electropenciled in a spot that would have been covered.


http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903A4%20Original/P1240951_zpsxsuvy50i.jpg

[Johnny P]

Jim, thanks for the help. I have been using Tinypic for years, and occasionally there would be periods when it just didn't work, but not for two days. I could go through the whole uploading, downloading, and the link would be on the forum but wouldn't open. Suddenly this morning it was working again, so suspect Tinypic.

Anyway, here is the photo of the scope on my nice 03-A4.

http://i61.tinypic.com/dh511f.jpg

[jgaynor]

[snip]

I'm not sure who electropenciled the serial on the scopes. I imagine either Weaver or the military. But if Weaver did it they probably would have put the rollstamp and electropencil down further on the tube. And say the military did it, it would for sure have never had any sealant on it because it's electropenciled in a spot that would have been covered.


http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/1903A4%20Original/P1240951_zpsxsuvy50i.jpg

Steve, The scope markings were applied by Weaver. Only place where it was practical when you think about it and Remingon did not have marking in their contract.

Not all of the Weaver 330C's or M73B1's had the goo under the data plate. It appears to be a feature that arrived with later production

[cplnorton]

Johnny, I have always loved that rifle. I remember the first time I saw the pic of it and drooling all over my keyboard!

Jim, do you have any data on how many A4's are out there that escaped rebuild?

Thanks for your help gentlemen. :)

[chuckindenver]

heres another pic.. of another sealed scope.

[jgaynor]

Jim, do you have any data on how many A4's are out there that escaped rebuild?

:)

Steve, only a WAG. Probably 1 to 3 %. Most of those rifles will show substantial wear but somehow bypassed normal ordnance channels before getting into civilian hands. Some A4's went to foreign MAP programs. I have sn records of about 600 that were shredded at Anniston. Also several dozen that existed only as barreled actions or stripped receivers (CMP).

The relatively common "mint" A4's almost always show signs or marks of rebuild/refinish. To encounter one with the original scope is a real longshot.

Your rifle may have been used extensively in training thus accounting for the apparent barrel wear but relatively good condition of the other surfaces.

Thanks for sharing it with us.

Regards,

Jim

[cplnorton]

Thanks Jim. That was sort of my thinking. Used in training or something along those lines.

I appreciate the help Gentlemen.