old rolling block questions

[mp40man]

I've had this old Remington Rolling Block Saddle Ring Carbine for a number of years and I load for it and shoot it. It's chambered in 50-45 so I have to cut 50-70 brass and use 13 gr of Trail Boss. I've been told this is from the 1860's but I don't know. There are a few markings on it that I have no clue about. There is a B stamped on the barrel just forward of the receiver on the right side of the barrel and a crown of some sort on the barrel band. I was given this better than 50 years ago by a friend of the family because no one else wanted it. The barrel is 20.5 inches and appears to have a carbine rear sight. I've included some pics and I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this old gun. The targets shown in the pics are from 25 yards. Thanking every one3146431465 in advance for any help with this. Best regards. Rich. 314613146231463

[mp40man]

One last pic. 31466 Again thanking you in advance. Rich.

[bruce]

Beautiful old rifle! The crown on the barrel band is interesting. Wonder if the rifle ever went over seas. At what distance was the target fired? Sincerely. bruce.

[mp40man]

Beautiful old rifle! The crown on the barrel band is interesting. Wonder if the rifle ever went over seas. At what distance was the target fired? Sincerely. bruce.
The target is from 25 yards. Rich.

[Dick Hosmer]

The rolling block is an interesting gun, which was used (and made) worldwide. I have some knowledge of the versions made, or altered, at Springfield from 1867-1872, but am abysmally ignorant on the foreign contracts. If the carbine is truly in .50-45, it should be the 1867 US Navy model, made entirely by Remington. But, we do not use crowns. Could it be a Navy gun sold abroad after period of use and reproofed, or is it a foreign made piece which happens to accept .50-45 ammunition? As an example - for many years, Danish RBs were advertised as being in .45-70, which they most definitely are not.

[bigskybound]

The true Navy carbines had a 23 1/4" barrel. Should have an anchor on top of breech and inspector initials on frame. The particulars escape me at the time. But there seems to be no end to rolling block oddities. Could be something put together by Bannerman using whatever parts they had laying around.

[joem]

My Danish RB is something like 45- 80 or there abouts. I start off with a 45-90 case, machine the rim and cut it down in length. The case can be fire formed and I have a set of custom dies to reload for it. This rifle is a M1876 made in 1882 and can fire rim fire cartridge ir center fire ammo. I'd like to find a few rim fire cartridges for display.

[butlersrangers]

'mp40man': Your Rolling-Block action appears (to me) to be the type Remington made for Spain, prior to Spain producing Rolling-Blocks at Oviedo, under license. Your action was built as a carbine because it has the sling-ring and bar. (Spain and Denmark had very similar 'crowns' on their R-B barrel-bands. I believe the Danish bands are marked on the left side).

Your receiver has an upper screw on the left side for a sliding extractor (This is a clue in dating a R-B). Your carbine could be more easily identified if you posted clear pictures of the front sight and extractor type. Also, a good clue on identifying Rolling-blocks is how the firing pin is retained in the block and how it is moved rearward from protruding from the block-face (spring, lever, or cam).

I suspect your .50 U.S. Carbine (.50-45) caliber barrel is a replacement someone put on a Remington made Spanish carbine.

'bigskybound' is correct in stating the U.S. Model 1867 Naval carbine barrel was just over 23 inches long and was marked with an 'anchor' on the top of the barrel at the breech. (There was also a US Naval Cadet rifle in .50 U.S. Carbine).

The US Navy carbine lacked a sling-bar and ring. It was fitted with a butt sling swivel and its carbine barrel-band (marked with a "U" on the right) had a sling-swivel. The Naval carbine 'barrel-band spring' is inletted into the bottom of the wood forearm. The bottom of the breech end of Naval Carbine and Naval Cadet Rifle barrels had a centered notch. This was a clearance cut for the early 'fixed stud extractor' on the lower part of the breech-block.

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Many of the 5,000 model 1867 Naval Carbines were scraped. Original Naval Carbine barrels (breech blocks and sights) were available in the Dixie Gun Works catalog at least until the 1970s. I have seen later #1 Remington R-B actions with these 'surplus' barrels on them. The usual giveaway is a vestige of the early extractor notch. If your barrel is a replacement, made from a cut-down US Naval carbine or cadet barrel, the nature and quality of the front sight will also be a clue. (Pictures of Spanish Oviedo R-B and barrel-band to show crown).

[jon_norstog]

The RB has to be one of the great gun designs of all time. Simple, cheap, easy to make, easy to use, easy to maintain. Too bad the US couldn't come up with a magazine rifle with the same virtues, to sell worldwide. FWIW my first firearm was an Argy RB I got thru Navy Arms or was it Ye Olde Hunter? Plentiful, cheap BP ammo, half of which would actually fire. What a step up from a Benjamin air rifle!

mp40, keep shooting that thing!

jn

[Dick Hosmer]

Well, the Remington-Lee - whose magazine type, designed in the late 1870s and still used in the countless millions today - was a good start.

[butlersrangers]

The fragile Remington-Lee was greatly modified and improved by the British. The Lee-Metford / Lee-Enfield's robust two-piece stock and substantial bolt-retention, along with other gradual refinements, evolved into a family of great battle rifles.

[jon_norstog]

The fragile Remington-Lee was greatly modified and improved by the British. The Lee-Metford / Lee-Enfield's robust two-piece stock and substantial bolt-retention, along with other gradual refinements, evolved into a family of great battle rifles.

As a Remington-Lee owner and shooter I've got to agree. The Remington-Lee was just not ready for prime time as a battle rifle. A more robust design, with simplified bolt/extractor/ejector and a decent positive safety, especially if Remington had brought it out before 1890, could have walked off with a lot of Paul Mauser's customers. And that's my opinion for what it is worth.

jn

[butlersrangers]

'jon' - Which Remington-Lee do you own and shoot (and do you still have your Argentine Rolling-Block)?

The Detroit Naval Reserves were using .45-70 caliber Remington-Lees in 1895 and the Michigan National Guard had a brief history with the model 1899 Remington-Lee, in .30-40 U.S.Army (until they went Krag-Jorgensen, around 1903).

I started my collecting with Lee-Enfields and being a Michigan Boy, I always was curious about the Remington-Lees and Sharp's Borchardts (used by Ancestors)!

(p.s. The Detroit Naval Reserve Sailors have their Lee magazines removed - Memorial Day 1895 / Campus Martius - Detroit. The Mich. N.G troops are at annual encampment, "Camp Bliss" - Manistee, Michigan 1900. NCOs have Krags and enlisted men have model 1899 Remington-Lees).

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[jon_norstog]

BR,

I have a 30-40, one of the 1895 rifles. When I got it it had been sporterized. The chamber was all wrong, I complained to Ron Petersen in Albq who sold it to me, and he had Jim Bedeaux et fils arquebusiers make it right. Beginning of a long relationship with them, great gunsmiths and they respect old guns. I use .308 loads in that rifle. Not max, but way over what I would run through a Krag. The good part is it is light and comes up to the shoulder like an expensive shotgun. Bad news is it has a half-cock safety you gotta bring the gun down and pull back on the Johnson rod. Too slow for elk hunting.

My current Argy is one my dad had rebaRRELLED TO .44 mag. I had Roy Bedeaux cut a new barrel in 45=70. It has Whitworth type rifling and just eats up BP fouling. My brother has a long rifle in .43 and a cutdown in .444 marlin. Those are our backup guns elk hunting.

The Argy I had when I was a kid, I left it with a "friend" when I went back east and the SOB sold it. It was really nice, had a marbles tang sight. May he rot in hell. FWIW my brother got with his ex-wife and all she could talk about was how small his johnson was. But when I catch up to him ...

jn

[butlersrangers]

I keep thinking I need to have a Rolling-Block carbine or rifle in .43 Spanish (and the Argentine RBs usually have the best bores).

I made the mistake in the past of selling a U.S. Naval (.50-45) carbine that was rough, but correct and fun to plink with, an accurate Danish RB rifle, and a U.S. model 1871 .50-70 rifle. I once had a near mint, WW1 French contract, Remington RB in 8mm Lebel (with saber bayonet & sling), that I wish I had back.

I always have thought highly of Rolling-Blocks. I still have a model 4 (.22 cal.) and a No. 5 (7mm) with mint bores, that are great fun to shoot. I guess I better get to the Range in the next couple of days!


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[jon_norstog]

The .43 Spanish is a great round. Lighter bullet and more powder than the 45-70. It is for all intents and purposes the same round as the 44-77 bottleneck. All the Argies got their pores broached when they were refurbed and they seem to like a larger diameter bullet than the original .439". The biggest issue with the .43 is the brass. Buffalo Arms has it but it is not cheap. OTOH it should last forever if you take care of it.

jn

[butlersrangers]

'jon' - Thanks for sharing your knowledge and insights on the Argentine Rolling-Blocks. I am seriously considering one as a 'shooter'.

I guess the 'Holy Grail' of Rolling-Blocks might be the Brevet Remington made by Nagant (under license) in Liege, Belgium, for the Vatican. These were chambered for the 12mm Remington "Pontificio" and issued to Swiss Guards and Papal Zouaves.

A very few apparently have made their way to the U.S., via Ethiopia. Some still reside in the Vatican Armory. I'm not holding my breath for a 'Vatican Garage-Sale' !

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[Dick Hosmer]

For me, the holy grail RB would be an SA 1870 Trials carbine. Just over 300 made; less than 20 known. And, while I am fantasizing - a Sharps carbine from the same trials would be nice, same number made, ZERO known.

[butlersrangers]

I'd love to have one of these instructional 'scarves' !

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[jon_norstog]

Papal rolling blocks! And in the Pope's own .50 caliber. Now I gotta have one. Wonder if they made any carbines?

jn

[butlersrangers]

No carbines that I know of, but, there was probably a muzzle grenade-cup for the "Holy Hand-Grenade of Antioch". (Good for Exorcisms)!

[jon_norstog]

That's a good one! I'd like to think the Pope went out on his balcony on New Years eve and let off a few rounds from one of the guards' rolling blocks.

jn