Value on All Matching, Non-Import, BYF 45 K-98 with Original Sling

[JAG1]

I recently acquired this K98 through private owner, whom stated that his grandfather had brought this back from WWII
but there are no documents to substantiate the claim. First off, I am no expert in the K98 and don't claim to be, in fact
my knowledge is limited in this area. Information I list here is what I found through long researching and from comments
and info obtained from those more versed and knowledgeable of the K98 rifles.
My consensus is that either this rifle is a very, very early import prior to 1968 when import marks were required or in
fact it is a vet bring back.

The rifle did have a light coat of shellac on it, that I assume the grandfather had applied after returning home to the states.
I was able to easily remove the shellac using denatured alcohol, allowing 24 hr dry time, then applied couple coats of Lemon Oil
with dry time in between coats and the coat of Tom's 1/3 mix. The pictures shows the results.

During the complete break down of the rifle, I inspected all parts and log stamps and markings that I found.
Those results are as follows: View set of pictures here: http://imgur.com/a/uSoTK#0

1945 byf by Mauser Oberndorf

Early – Late War 1945
Receiver Code: Mod 98
byf 45 receiver proofs waf 135 (2) (on sides) waf 135 (1) (on top)

Side Rail: Blank

Serial Number: 5 digits (s/n 41973)

Upper Band: no s/n no waf speed milled

Lower Band: no s/n no waf stamped

Trigger Guard:
no s/n byf and waf 135 (2) stamped with 2 screws

Bolt: Kriegsmodel (phosphate) Matching Numbers: 1973
Safety on bottom appears to have waf

Front sight: Hood no waf

Rear Sight: meter scale no s/n waf 135 (bottom right side of sight)

Rear sight base: no s/n possible waf 135 (hard to make out)

Stock: Laminate

Stock Markings: (External Marks) Inside: (blurred waf and inverted V)
Side: (rgt side under disk) WaA135
Pistol Grip: unreadable/blurred waf
Spine: * C
Top Guard: *C

Bayonet Lug: no s/n no waf stamped

Floor Plate: no s/n byf waf 135 stamped phosphate

Magazine Follower: no s/n no waf stamped

Cleaning Rod: no number, no waf, 12.5”

Sling: Leather Original, no markings that could be seen

This is nicest K98 that I had ever come across in long time that wasn't in someone's collection;
even though its not in my realm of collecting, I couldn't pass it up.

I welcome all comments, insight, opinions on the rifle, It would only help further my
knowledge of this rifles.

Thanks for viewing .... Full set of pictures:http://imgur.com/a/uSoTK#0

[mike webb]

Nice K98. I think the stock may have been lightly sanded at some time as the WaA is smeared and not crisp but still a nice rifle. I think at that point in the war the stocks left the factory absolutely raw wood with no finish. Most I have seen have chatter marks still visible in the wood from rough machining. Collectors really go nuts over those ones. You could post it at the K98 forum, that is where the highest number of late war experts hang out . Maybe take some good closeups of the metal markings and wood. Good catch, I would have grabbed it in a heartbeat.

[JAG1]

Thanks Mike for your insight, appreciate it.
I'm not sure about sanding myself, the grandson couldn't tell me more as he is unfamiliar with
any firearm. Recently he did contact me and stated he found some sort of tobacco tin with contents.
I went over to visit him and sure enough he had a complete K98 cleaning kit, marked GAppel and with
a weak Waf mark. I guess the grandfather also brought this back with the rifle. Course, I had to make
any offer and he accepted. Closer receiver markings and bolt markings are in the picture link

[dave]

While there are few people who would pay it, I think it would be valued at 1500-2000 dollars. You would need a die hard collector with money to pay it. Stock does not look sanded altho I see no pics showing stampings. Edges of bolt cut-out look sharp and laminate stocks did not take stamps well. I have been collecting these since the late 50's early 60's and have never seen a 45 dated byf with all regular feature's. By then most K98k's were those so called 'last ditch' types, which seem to bring outrageous money. Is there a H, L, or M stamp on right side of butt? I have two such rifles, a 42 and a 44, appear never issued and no 'branch' stamp on stock. Laminate stocks, no matter the year, left the factory with no finish of any kind.

[JAG1]

While there are few people who would pay it, I think it would be valued at 1500-2000 dollars. You would need a die hard collector with money to pay it. Stock does not look sanded altho I see no pics showing stampings. Edges of bolt cut-out look sharp and laminate stocks did not take stamps well. I have been collecting these since the late 50's early 60's and have never seen a 45 dated byf with all regular feature's. By then most K98k's were those so called 'last ditch' types, which seem to bring outrageous money. Is there a H, L, or M stamp on right side of butt? I have two such rifles, a 42 and a 44, appear never issued and no 'branch' stamp on stock. Laminate stocks, no matter the year, left the factory with no finish of any kind.

Dave,
Thank you for your insight and information. I figured that a serious collector of the K98 would be interested in the rifle.
I certainly can relate to financial hard times these days. I like you, dont belive this stock has been sanded, my pictures dont
do the rifle justice due to the only camera I have on hand. The rifle in person is truly nice. In my research it would seem to
me that its probably a very early-late war 45' before they started pushing these out later in 1945. Ive also read in research
that the laminate stock didnt take to the stamps that well.

I notice another stamp which appears to be an " 8 " or a " S " on the top spine along with the " C "
there also looks like a U or inverted U in the recess under the sling frog cutout.
Inside the stock there are no numbers, but I see a weak waf stamp and also something like a inverted V
Bore on the rifle reflects light and looks like good lands and grooves.

Also, I finally was able to tap off the butt plate, and on the wood there is a Large " B " and then a 5 and then a 45 possibly
stamped into the stock.

31515

[dave]

Those stamps under butt plate indicate sub-contractor and date, 1945. You could go to Gun Board Forums, they have a K98k forum and some of them really get in to the details, which have never interested me particularly. I collect many models of 98's beside K98k's. In Ball's k98k book your rifle is referred to a 'variant', ('Mod.98' moved to top of receiver). The 'Kriegsmodell' was the same but machining was much rougher and some parts were dropped or changed to stamped.
Serial number studies of known rifles done by collectors, indicate byf produced 108,267 rifles of both types in 1945. But such numbers/studies should be taken with a grain of salt as they 'assume' every number in a letter block was completed. They do, however give an idea of yearly production.

[JAG1]

Those stamps under butt plate indicate sub-contractor and date, 1945. You could go to Gun Board Forums, they have a K98k forum and some of them really get in to the details, which have never interested me particularly. I collect many models of 98's beside K98k's. In Ball's k98k book your rifle is referred to a 'variant', ('Mod.98' moved to top of receiver). The 'Kriegsmodell' was the same but machining was much rougher and some parts were dropped or changed to stamped.
Serial number studies of known rifles done by collectors, indicate byf produced 108,267 rifles of both types in 1945. But such numbers/studies should be taken with a grain of salt as they 'assume' every number in a letter block was completed. They do, however give an idea of yearly production.

That is a wealth of information and I really appreciate it. There are so many stamps used that I guess one could spend a lifetime studing and learning about them
I had no ideal, what the stamps in this butt stock would mean, other then the numbers could have been a year date.

Thank you again Dave

[dave]

You never answered if there was H, L, or M stamp on right side of butt. That would tell you if it was ever assigned to a service branch and to which--L Air, H Army, M Navy. The L and M should be worth a premium, vast majority were sent to the Army.

[rockisle1903]

You never answered if there was H, L, or M stamp on right side of butt. That would tell you if it was ever assigned to a service branch and to which--L Air, H Army, M Navy. The L and M should be worth a premium, vast majority were sent to the Army.

quit doing that in 1941 at least at mauser oberndorf should have just an Eagle/135 acceptance on the stock...Stock is a subcontract stock not made by mauser oberndorf that is why it is in standard configuration not semi-kreigsmodell or full kreigsmodell, I AM MAKING A CORRECTION AS I MADE A MISTAKE IN THIS POST...The stock was diverted from gustloff (BCD code) production late in 44/early 45, I missed the C mark..It was not made by jp sauer, although they did send stocks to mauser oberndorf also...You probably would have been better off by NOT adding anything to the stock after you stripped the shellac, just my opinion as there is more damage done removing a non original finish and then adding one that is not period correct such as lemon oil and tom's 1/3 mix or whatever it's called

[dave]

I was not aware of that, explains my two byf's, a 42 & 44.

[JAG1]

You never answered if there was H, L, or M stamp on right side of butt. That would tell you if it was ever assigned to a service branch and to which--L Air, H Army, M Navy. The L and M should be worth a premium, vast majority were sent to the Army.

On the right side of butt I can only find the WaA135 stamp

[dave]

I can never understand this big deal about an excellent matching, original sling, bring back and people criticizing the rifle because the stock has a finish applied and/or was lightly sanded (as long as stamps are still there). That is what a lot of GI's did to their prize's. Part of the history if you believe in such! Just have to comment negatively? I do not believe it devalues a rifle by much if any. And I would never pass up such a rifle. And most others would not either. Just my opinion. Everyone owes and ahs over the rifles in Ball's book, but they do not know most of them are mismatched examples.

[JAG1]

I can never understand this big deal about an excellent matching, original sling, bring back and people criticizing the rifle because the stock has a finish applied and/or was lightly sanded (as long as stamps are still there). That is what a lot of GI's did to their prize's. Part of the history if you believe in such! Just have to comment negatively? I do not believe it devalues a rifle by much if any. And I would never pass up such a rifle. And most others would not either. Just my opinion. Everyone owes and ahs over the rifles in Ball's book, but they do not know most of them are mismatched examples.

Thank you Dave for your comment, I appreciate it.
Im not a collector of these rifles, but when I came across it I knew enough to know its not
one often seen in its condition, all matching and with no import marks.

I decided that a serious collector might come to appreciate for what it is and would like to have
it in their collection. I have entered the rifle into Auction, and its already met its Reserve Price
with 2 1/2 days to go still. So someone will certainly receive a nice rifle

I thank everyone for their comments and opinions, it certainly has been a educational and informative time
and I learned even more then I did before.

Thank You

[rockisle1903]

I can never understand this big deal about an excellent matching, original sling, bring back and people criticizing the rifle because the stock has a finish applied and/or was lightly sanded (as long as stamps are still there). That is what a lot of GI's did to their prize's. Part of the history if you believe in such! Just have to comment negatively? I do not believe it devalues a rifle by much if any. And I would never pass up such a rifle. And most others would not either. Just my opinion. Everyone owes and ahs over the rifles in Ball's book, but they do not know most of them are mismatched examples.

It does devalue the rifle to a serious collector of K98's ,quite a bit actually. What is acceptable practice on USGI rifles is frowned upon by Mauser collectors..Yes, it has value and could be "restored" by putting it in a untouched stock made by Mauser Oberndorf as they were not numbered. Rifles history I get and the GI that sent it home could do as he wished with his rifle..He earned that right..But to do something to the stock that isn't period correct and YOU didn't bring it back ruins the history of the rifle..You are the new "caretakers" of these artifacts and to do something to them that can't be reversed only makes the untouched ones worth more and turns another one into a shooter instead of a true collectors piece.

[dave]

Finish will all most always come right off with stripper, its the ones which were stained that are difficult. Regardless what people think laminate stocks left the factory with no finish of any kind. Walnut had a oil finish, probably linseed but German documents do not state what. The dark brownish color of most all laminate stocks comes from dirt and perhaps the troops used oil on them. At any rate nothing would penetrate the first 1/16" layer of wood, as the 'glue' used is an epoxy resin, which will absorb nothing! All the other stuff you read about factory finish on laminates on the internet is just B.S. Of my 22 or so K98k's at least 3-4 are stained. And one has a light finish on it. Its a K98k made for China, Chinese proof/inspection marks, Mauser banner on receiver. Matched except m/m bolt. It never went to China and was issued to the German Navy. Now you tell me what this rifle is worth and how much you would devalue it because of the "defects"! And tell me a "serious" collector would not snap it up! Robert Jensen, who provided many of the rifles for Ball's book is a serious collector and his collection has many m/m examples. I know a guy who has seen it.

[rockisle1903]

Finish will all most always come right off with stripper, its the ones which were stained that are difficult. Regardless what people think laminate stocks left the factory with no finish of any kind. Walnut had a oil finish, probably linseed but German documents do not state what. The dark brownish color of most all laminate stocks comes from dirt and perhaps the troops used oil on them. At any rate nothing would penetrate the first 1/16" layer of wood, as the 'glue' used is an epoxy resin, which will absorb nothing! All the other stuff you read about factory finish on laminates on the internet is just B.S. Of my 22 or so K98k's at least 3-4 are stained. And one has a light finish on it. Its a K98k made for China, Chinese proof/inspection marks, Mauser banner on receiver. Matched except m/m bolt. It never went to China and was issued to the German Navy. Now you tell me what this rifle is worth and how much you would devalue it because of the "defects"! And tell me a "serious" collector would not snap it up! Robert Jensen, who provided many of the rifles for Ball's book is a serious collector and his collection has many m/m examples. I know a guy who has seen it.

This is my last post on this subject as the OP is already flipping his rifle...All I was stating is that less is more..If you do not know what is damaging or not damaging to a 70 year old laminate stock with glues that suffered in quality as the war progressed (especially around 1945)..You are better to leave it alone..Or at least get some opinions on a dedicated collectors board to type the rifle you own on a proper conservation/restoration technique..And they did seal the stocks on k98's up until 1944 with a "linseed oil varnish" or something along those lines as no one is 100% certain of what exactly "linseed oil varnish" is...

[dave]

Statements like 'sealed laminate stocks until 1944' and 'glue suffered in quality as war progressed' is the internet BS I referred to. Back those statements up with facts and documentation or stop spreading them! And not just a "knowledgeable collector told me", that don't cut it. Take the metal out of any original laminate stock and you will see how it left the factory.

[rockisle1903]

All the information is right here:
http://www.thirdpartypress.com/
and I have nothing to do with these books..

[dave]

Those books were written by a couple collectors who post on Gun Boards. I have never seen them and can not afford them so probably never will. Do they have documentation on finish's, etc. or just statements? I still say the best way to tell is to examine under butt plate, barrel action, sides of magazine well, under side of hand guard, and any other covered wood. If the stocks had been finished there would be finish in these areas. I have taken apart hundreds of these rifles since the 1950's and have never seen any finish there, unlike jap rifles, or US rifles. They were available in gun stores on a weekly basis up into the 60's, bring backs that GI's were selling or trading. Had a group of 6-8 friends and we traded back and forth, one guy sportered many and always gave me the metal and wood. Another of the group was a Sgt. in German Army. It was like a never ending supply then, 35-40 bucks a pop. This was in Chicago area and many gun shops at the time, even in Chicago!
John Sukey, who posts here, was another guy loosely associated with the Group. I have a rifle (S/42 1936) that made the rounds thru the group, John included, and finally got back to me, who had bought it first.
Aw, 'those were the days my friend'----

[mike webb]

Actually those books are the latest and absolute best reference books available for the German K98k collector bar none and the authors are two of the leading authorities on the subject. Books like BACKBONE OF THE WEHRMACHT were quite good for their time but have been found to be full of errors as new documents come to light. Much like George Madis Winchester book was considered the BIBLE for years but there are errors in it as well. Not to disparage George's work which was extensive and thorough.

[dave]

But---but you refuse to answer my 'no finish under metal' statements. Why is that? Have you never had one apart? I know a lot of collectors refuse to turn a screw cause it would no longer be "original". All books have errors--down the road that will be found for these books too! With out original German documents no one can know these kind of details for sure.

[mike webb]

Actually the new books have a lot of original German documents in them. They are well researched works. You really should have a look at them before you condemn them. I have had quite a few K98's apart and on the later war issue rifles I have seen no evidence of finish added whatsoever. The pre war and early war rifles were finished with raw linseed oil or something similar in my opinion.

[keith smart]

Actually the new books have a lot of original German documents in them. They are well researched works. You really should have a look at them before you condemn them. I have had quite a few K98's apart and on the later war issue rifles I have seen no evidence of finish added whatsoever. The pre war and early war rifles were finished with raw linseed oil or something similar in my opinion.

I agree. I fail to understand how someone can disparage these two fine works . I purchased both volumes when they came out and there is no finer work available on the topic.
Keith

[kar66]

I have both of their books and am looking forward to the third one. They are well worth the money if you are into K98ks.