1903/1905 dated leather sling

[Hal O'Peridol]

Got this on a commercial Savage .22 rifle.

Rock Island Arsenal made both straps. It is not a M1907 sling, wondering if it is a M1903 or M1905.

Seems awful long for a Krag. Issue sling for early M1903 Springfield rifle?

http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31869&stc=1http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31870&stc=1http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31871&stc=1http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31872&stc=1http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31873&stc=1

[Hal O'Peridol]

Last couple of pics

http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31874&stc=1http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31875&stc=1

[rayg]

Well now there are two of these slings we're aware of. I posted the one I have last December here and were there was a discussion on it. http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?50531-Tell-me-about-this-sling!&highlight=rayg Some how none of the photos are the ones I posted. Have no idea what happened, so I'll repost the photos here.
The sling has 16 double holes on the short end and 32 on the long end whereas the regular 07 slings have only 16 on both ends. I also checked my TD and Krag slings and they only have 16-18 double holes total.
There is also an inspectors stamp on the sling.
It's been mentioned that may have been made from earlier slings but the only problem I see with using and/or combining other slings to make it is the long length has 32 sets of holes in it. No other earlier sling I can think of has that many holes. The TD/Krag slings have only 18-19 sets of holes total, musket slings less also. It seems that the sling maybe was originally designed that way with that number of holes or why else would they add that many more holes? In fact not sure why they would need that many holes. Ray
I checked the Krag/TD slings and there would be enough length of the sling with out holes in it already to re-use for the long length. But why not just punch the normal amount of holes if there were none already in it. Why that many holes unless it was intentional. Another thought, but probably way remote, but maybe it's a scrap piece that was used in setting up the punches and as nothing was discarded they just used it. It's the extra amount of the holes that create the question as no other obsolete slings have that many or that pattern of holes. I still lean a bit to a Trials sling. Especially with the RI stamp and date on each end to indicate Arsenal approval/done.
Ray

3191631917319183191931920

[Hal O'Peridol]

Long strap is 48 inches long with 35 pairs of holes, plus the extra two holes.

Short strap is 24 inches long with 16 pairs of holes.

The sling is obviously USGI, arsenal stamped and inspector marked. The length of the long strap and odd number and spacing of holes does not correspond with any other US sling that I know about.

Tried to google/duckduckgo the M1905 sling, but there really is little info out there.

I was hoping Rick the Librarian would chime in.

[PhillipM]

PM or call Richard Turner.

[Hal O'Peridol]

PM or call Richard Turner.

Did so this past Friday, 8/7/15.

[rayg]

Ok I re-measured my sling just to be sure I measured right before and the long length is 48" with 32 pr holes and the short length is 24" with 16 pr of holes. both of the posted slings, his and mine, are close to being the same pattern so more then one was made. It's possible this sling might be a trials or transition version designed for the rod bayonet and converted 1905-06 dated Springfield's. Probably a bit of influence or suggestions by target shooters w/the arsenal's back then by using two hooks for better rifle/sling hold for shooting not one hook like the earlier Krag slings had. Also the overall length of my sling is 2" shorter then the standard 07 sling, Ray

[Hal O'Peridol]

Let's toss this into the mix. From a 1927 gun and parts catalog, probably Bannerman's but cannot state for sure.

http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31936&stc=1

[Hal O'Peridol]

Got a reply from Richard Turner. Combo of a M1903 short strap and a M1905 long strap. So essentially it's a bubba sling!

[Richard Turner/Turner Saddlery]

Got a reply from Richard Turner. Combo of a M1903 short strap and a M1905 long strap. So essentially it's a bubba sling!

Your sling is correct and was one of the early M1907 Slings, since the Ordnance Department mandated that the existing usable M1903 and M1905 Slings in inventory be cannibalized and used for construction of the new model M1907 Sling in order to save cost. From what I understand, the U.S. Army had tens of thousands of the earlier slings in inventory which was still in serviceable condition and could be modified for making the new M1907 Sling. Your sling in its current condition would be quite valuable to someone who needed it for their collection. I believe your sling modification to have been made at Rock Island Arsenal, most likely a first year production. Rock Island cannibalized many musket slings, spliced the straps together in order to make some of the first M1887 Slings for the M1873 Springfield Rifle.

Back then, leather was an even more valuable commodity and was re-purposed when practicable. This was also what happened to many M1885 McClellan Cavalry Saddles. The tree and hardware was salvaged and they were rebuilt into the M1904 and M1912 Cavalry Saddles in order to save cost.

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This is what I posted over on the CMP Forums Accessories Page:

Hal O'Peridol:

Your sling is made up from two different slings, short strap is made up from the M1903 Sling and the long strap is made up from a M1905 Sling. The two large holes with slits on the tail of the long strap were the button holes for the brass sling stud.

Each of these earlier slings had a hook at one end and a brass button stud at the other. Each sling had 20 pair of holes in the body of the sling and was outfitted with a pair of keepers. The M1903 Sling was 52" long and the M1905 Sling was 48" long. The difference in each, other than length, was the number of holes at the button end. The M1903 had three pair while the M1905 had two pair of holes. There was an M1906 Sling as well. It was made up the same as the M1905; however, it omitted the two pair of holes at the button end of the sling and was considered an experimental sling. The M1907 Sling was finally the culmination of these various type slings and served the need not only as a carry strap, but also as a shooting aid.

If you don't have Colonel Brophy's Book on the Springfield, here is a link to Page 435 covering the various slings and descriptions. There are some discrepancies, such as referring to the 66.5 inch sling as the M1903 Sling when it is actually the M1887 Sling, which was used on both the M1873 Springfield (Trapdoor) as well as the Krag. https://books.google.com/books?id=vb3dDN9FiekC&pg=PA435&lpg=PA435&dq=m1903+sling+one+hook+and+one+button&source=bl&ots=MbYmLByZx3&sig=lQGtT-L770FFHJ7XgOaPwT6UtWY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAGoVChMIs4eos5umxwIVwrKACh0MjQJX#v=on epage&q=m1903%20sling%20one%20hook%20and%20one%20button&f=false


This one of our M1903 Sling Reproductions with blackened brass as per the original. Notice the three pair of holes at the button end of the strap. On the M1905 Sling, there were only two pair of holes.
http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y417/tursad/M1903%20Sling/M1903Sling_zpsd74a1725.jpg (http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/tursad/media/M1903%20Sling/M1903Sling_zpsd74a1725.jpg.html)

[Fred]

Excellent quality sling. The one you made for me is Great Richard!

[rayg]

[QUOTE=Richard Turner/Turner Saddlery;426530] There was an M1906 Sling as well. It was made up the same as the M1905; however, it omitted the two pair of holes at the button end of the sling and was considered an experimental sling.

See post #3 that I posted above for the M1906 experimental sling that Richard mentioned about in his post. It has two hooks and is dated 1905 on both ends and w/no holes for the button. Looks like I guessed it right that it was experimental not a normal put together, Ray

[Richard Turner/Turner Saddlery]

Ray:

What you have is also one of the first M1907 Slings made up from two M1905 Slings. What they did at Rock Island Arsenal was take the earlier slings and chop the best section, utilizing the existing holes. You have to keep in mind that saddlers at the various commands were also authorized to make these modifications, turning earlier slings into the new M1907, so there will be variations.

I try to tell folks all the time that you will find variations in all types of military gear, especially over 70 years ago. They were making modifications to a piece of gear in order to make it into a serviceable item and not concerned what a collector may think of their handy work 100 years down the line, i.e., "Is it correct or not?" Some of these rebuilds and repairs were referred to as "Field Expedient Work". Especially in leather and canvas work, some of the unit saddlers and harness makers were not that great at their craft and much of their work shows. I have stumbled across military saddles and horse related equipment that had less than desirable hardware, such as rings and loops (in brass and iron), that had been hammered out in the field for a replacement. Some of these troops were not very good blacksmiths either.

The M1887 (66.5"); M1903 (52"); and M1905 (48") slings all had 20 pair of holes punched within the body of the slings. They normally had the original 20 pair of holes beginning at the hook end of the long strap and punched 10 to 12 pair of holes on the non-hook end of the strap. The short strap would be salvaged from another section of one of the earlier slings, and you usually see a pair of holes very close to the hook on the short strap. The Rock Island Specs called for 16 pair of holes on the hook end and 10 pair of holes on the feed end (non-hook end). The short strap had 16 pair of holes. There is information out there on these very early M1907 Slings, but you have to dig to find it. There are some discrepancies in several of Colonel Brophy's writings as well as others in regard to which model number was assigned to a particular sling.

Richard

[rayg]

Ok. guessed wrong :icon_rolleyes: . I suppose there was enough leather on the older slings to stamp those 32 pr of holes on the long section and having the hooks on each end section where the 05 dates were still positioned under the hooks. Richard what does the trials M1906 sling look like? Ray

[Richard Turner/Turner Saddlery]

Ray:

Don't know if you missed it, but the link I listed earlier details a lot of what you are asking. It is a direct link to Page 435 and 436, Brophy's Springfield Book, and on both pages it details development of the various slings, including the M1906 and M1907. I tried to copy/paste, but it is in Google Books and will not let me. Here is the link again. It does not list Page 434, but the other pages available have the info you need.

https://books.google.com/books?id=vb3dDN9FiekC&pg=PA435&lpg=PA435&dq=m1903+sling+one+hook+and+one+button&source=bl&ots=MbYmLByZx3&sig=lQGtT-L770FFHJ7XgOaPwT6UtWY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAGoVChMIs4eos5umxwIVwrKACh0MjQJX#v=on epage&q=m1903%20sling%20one%20hook%20and%20one%20button&f=true

Under the M1907 Sling LtCol. Brophy states that The Office of the Chief of Ordnance and Rock Island worked up a plan to utilize various obsolete slings on hand at Rock Island to make parts of the new 1907 sling. Cost of rework was .32 cents per sling. In 1907, 19,000 M1907 slings were to be made using the obsolete slings. All together, 106,470 slings were ordered to be fabricated in the same way. LtCol Brophy goes on further to state that in examining a dozen such slings, seven different dates and ten different inspector's initials. At least five contractors and Rock Island Arsenal are identified. This makes since, due to the fact that all previous slings had their own manufacturer's markings as well as inspector's initials.

I have some scanned pages from another book on Krags, I believe it is from Joe Poyer's book "The American Krag Rifle and Carbine", but I'm unsure. There is some good info on page 140-143, regarding the M1903, M1887 (66 1/2"), and M1907 Slings.

Back around the mid to late ninties, I had the great fortune to be able to speak with a gentleman who had worked at Boyt Harness from the mid 1930s up through about the mid 1970s, said he had worked at Boyt for over 40 years. He was still stopping by their shop once a week at that time. I asked him about ordnance department inspectors, and he said not every piece that left a civilian contractor's shop or the various arsenals received an inspector's initials. He said that the inspector had set days that he would stop by and look over production, and inspect and stamp, say every 10th or 15th holster, sling, or scabbard, ect., with his initial stamp. He said that the inspector was not on site 24/7, that he had other shops and manufacturing facilities within his geographical jurisdiction to inspect. What is a real shame is, Boyt burned sometime during the late 1980s or early 1990s, and all records were lost. This gentleman said Boyt was very meticulous at keeping records and never threw anything away, so this was a great loss.

The whole deal around getting the chance to speak with this gentleman at Boyt, was in regard to a question I asked the President of Boyt one year at the SHOT SHOW. How did Boyt machine stitch M1907 keepers during WWII. He gave me his card and told me to call the company the following week and he would find out when this gentleman would be stopping by. I guess we spoke for almost an hour and he was a wealth of information. I know he has passed on by now, he was in his eighties at that time. Later on, he dug around the parts room at Boyt and found one of the old attachments that they used to sew the keepers and had someone send me some photos along with a description of the process and the type of sewing machine used. The attachment was designed to be used on a Campbell Harness Stitcher (thankfully I had one in the shop). I contacted the company who still carried parts for these old machines, sent them a copy of the photo, and lo and behold, they found one of the attachments that was at least 75 years old and in unused condition. They didn't have any idea of what operation the attachment performed.

We still stitch our keepers by hand, one stitch at a time. I just never liked the way the machine stitched keeper looked, even though they looked as good or better than war time production. I could go on and on about equipment, but I'll save that for later.

Richard

[rayg]

Thanks again Richard. I forgot but I also have both Poyer's and Bophy's books. I should have checked the books. It's clear to me now that they used parts/sections of the early 03 and 05 slings to assemble 07 pattern slings. The sling is now residing on my 1903 RI that has all correct, not assembled from RB or 30/03 rifle dated parts but was made in the 1st year of normal production in the 6th month of 1907. I think an appropriate sling for that rifle. Ray

[Richard Turner/Turner Saddlery]

Ray:

Just glad that you and Hal have one of these slings and appreciate how the M1907 was born. When I first started making slings in 1988, it was just another item I could make along with holsters, saddles, scabbards, and other miscellaneous items. I rapidly realized that trying to make the most authentic sling was where it was at. It wasn't but a few years later, that I was the only one making an arsenal correct sling and just about everything else I was making fell by the wayside. I remember the wife (Camille) saying in 1991, her Dad, a Pharmacy Professor and Assistant Dean @ Auburn University, thought I had lost my mind when she told him after 14 years, I was leaving the Marine Corps to make rifle slings. He said there has to be only so many rifles and eventually I would have no work, but he was wrong. I finished out my time in the USMC Reserves and we are still going strong today. It hurt real bad to have to pony up the money last year for dies in order to make the frogs (hooks), but since our supplier discontinued the part, it was start making our own or go out of business. Heading into our 27th year next month, and at age 58, it has been a good ride no matter what the future holds. I just appreciate all the folks who have stood by us all these years, as several times I have been tempted to throw in the towel.

Most have probably seen the several post I made last year on the various forums about the new frogs. It also prompted me to write a fairly detailed history of how it all began and credit those who have helped along the way. Here is a link to the most active post over on the CMP Forums.

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=143280

History is where it is at. Glad collectors like yourself, Fred, and Hal, are out there trying to document and preserve the past. I don't profess to know everything about slings, but I do appreciate any and all assistance in the area of slings, because very little has been documented.

Richard

[rayg]

I still have one question.
Both mine and OP's sling have 32-34 pr of holes in the long length and 16 pr in the short length.
The standard M1907 slings have 16 pr of holes in both lengths.
I understand the using of 2 older slings to make one. But if they were going to make them to conform to the M1907 pattern sling, why not the same amount of holes why add all those extra holes. My mind just can't let go of the fact that these two slings were not made as a standard M1907. I can see no other reason why so many extra holes were added unless they could be pre M1907 trials/prototype slings. My sling is also 2 inches shorter then a 1907 sling.
It would seem that if they were making a M1907 pattern sling out of old sling parts, why not the normal 16 pr's of holes as that would be an easy fit on most of the salvaged older sling sections. Also there are no older slings that have that many holes in them already that I'm aware of. So it would seem that many extra holes had to be intentionally added? Maybe the harness maker or arsenal worker just decided to add that many holes, Who knows, but here are two slings made the same with more holes then the M1907 sling has. That could indicate they may be a trials pattern and a pre 1907 sling. Would love to have some one else post that they have one just like it also.

Richard I remember your post on making the hooks, read it with interest. Also did I buy an original Russian SVT sling from you a couple year ago? If I recall right you found a few original slings and used them as a pattern to make them and sold the originals off and which I bought one of the originals, Ray.

[Richard Turner/Turner Saddlery]

Ray:

In an ideal world, with the utilization of the M1887, M1903, and M1905 slings (all had 20 pair of holes) to make the new model M1907 sling, on the long strap you should have 20 pair of holes beginning at the hook end and 10 pair of holes beginning at the other end (feed end), for a total of 30 pair of holes total punched in the long strap. Reason for the minimum of 20 pair of holes starting at the hook end is due to the fact that each of the slings used to make the conversion originally had 20 pair of holes.

I noticed in your photo (Post #3), that your sling only has 8 pair of holes; however, it appears that the end has been cut, kind of straight across with definite corners, rather than having the semi rounded profile specified in the drawings. Also you stated that your sling is two inches shorter than a M1907 sling, which most likely answers the fact that you only have 8 pair of holes at the feed end vice the required 10 pair.

We are not dealing with a mint pristine piece of gear in either example, and it was very common for troops to add extra holes and make modifications as necessary. I began using the M1907 sling in 1978 while assigned to various USMC Shooting Teams and at times many, including myself, would punch extra holes when needed in our issue M1907 slings. It was so common that the team captain usually had a rotary hole punch in the team shooting box, if not, the armory usually had one available. As I have told many, it is easy to add extra holes, but real tough to remove holes.

If you notice in the OP's photo of the short strap, it actually has 17 pair of holes (one pair at the heel of the hook) and the specs only specified 16 pair for the short strap and it was made from a M1903 sling as evidenced in the photo of the back of the sewn section at the "D" ring. Most likely reason for the 17 pair of holes was they were trying to achieve the 24" - 25" finished length per the original drawings for the short strap.

I don't know what else I can say or provide, other than the fact that Rock Island ordered that 106,470 M1907 slings be produced from earlier surplus slings and I'm sure many of these slings had already been modified and extra holes punched when needed.

This is the cleanest early drawing I have of the M1907, dated Jan 1916. It shows the length of the long strap to be 47" inches (length of leather).

If anyone wants to be picky, all the specs I have ever seen calls for oval or oblong holes, including specs for the length and width of the hole; however, I have seen many M1907 slings with round holes, mostly made by the various contractors in WWI and WWII, not to mention all the variations of the gun sling hooks in both brass and steel. I have collected at least a dozen or more with different point styles and widths from scrap slings over the years, even though there was only one specification and style of hook to be used. I have seen early hooks that were cast bronze when the specs called for the hook to be stamped from brass and formed.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y417/tursad/M1907%20Sling%20Drawings/994efb8d-6ee6-4681-b109-3e6fa9e3b18d_zps416e9c44.jpg (http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/tursad/media/M1907%20Sling%20Drawings/994efb8d-6ee6-4681-b109-3e6fa9e3b18d_zps416e9c44.jpg.html)

We have been talking about slings, but you will see modifications on various pieces of gear such as the M6 Knife Scabbard for the M3 Trench Knife. The M6 Scabbard required a wire belt hanger to be stitched and riveted at the top. Due to the fact that many paratroopers shoved the scabbard in their boot instead of hanging it on their cartridge belt, they cut the wire hanger off so the top portion could be folded over and tied around the scabbard body with a boot lace, another field modification. I have had many say the scabbard was another variant, but there is no evidence, just evidence that a soldier cut the belt hanger off. I have a rifle scabbard originally made for the M1903, later it was modified for the M1 Garand by being cut for the op rod and the brass shroud added. Then it underwent another modification, someone riveted a 2" wide strap about 12" long at the throat. The added strap has a long oval slit allowing the scabbard to be hung on a vehicle, aircraft, or maybe on a saddle horn. Even though the McClellan Saddles had no horn, the M1913 Mule Saddle had a brass saddle horn as did the driving saddle used on horse and mule teams and the horse cavalry didn't die until toward the end of WWII.

Richard

[rayg]

Thanks Richard, that puts to rest my question. I finally went and looked at a couple of my1887 slings to finally see what you meant, Ray