Weaver K4 60-B

[Randy A]

Whats the no BS story on the Weaver K4 60-B, I see claims that they were used as sniper scopes? If some were how were they identified? Did they have any special features, post, crosshare, serial numbers etc?
Thanks,

[Embalmer]

Read fbi used them on their a4's for a stint in the 70's

[jgaynor]

I Have an email in my data from a collector who observed M1903A4 Sn 4996846 (Quantico Inventory No. #890772) that reportedly bore a Weaver K460B.

I have one more A4 in my data that supposedly was returned from Vietnam with a K460B. However i have multiple entries for this rifle and the details have tended to vary so ?????...

[Randy A]

Ok, so it was a case by case usage thing and not necessarily a contracted use, for lack of a better term (they simply "could" have used them). LOL I'll bet there's a few ebay sellers that will argue the facts.
I stumbled across a beautiful A3 that is all original, barrel, finish and all even a Boyt 43 sling. It passed through Ogden but was untouched (open OG stamp). Now I believe the OG stamp theore, if a rifle arrived with no need of work it got the OG and was sent along. The barrel still gages new and matches the reciever........ but bubba installed a K4 60B, pulled the front sight and turned the bolt handle. Well, he did an ok job but ruined a pristine rifle. I don't think it was shot much because it's still got cosmo in all the low spots.
Anyhow, thanks guys

[stan4]

Whats the no BS story on the Weaver K4 60-B, I see claims that they were used as sniper scopes? If some were how were they identified? Did they have any special features, post, crosshare, serial numbers etc?
Thanks,

Randy A,

A few years back the DCM sold 1" M1D mounts with K4 60B scopes (most came with the Weaver grey lens caps). Was told the Army used them.?

Not sure about the features---but, have not examined one with serial numbers.

Best Regards,

[rickgman]

A small number of M1D sniper rifles with Weaver K4 60B scopes were sold by the CMP some years ago. There is little doubt that these scopes were used on M1D's. The area of contention has to do with their use on M1903A4 rifles. I personally believe that they were used but in a very limited quantity. I have found no documentation that such a configuration was standardized so without documentation, there will be contention. Rick

[jeff p]

I was able to visit Building 2121 at the Quanitico Marine base and in their inventory are 2 M1Ds with Weaver K4 60B scopes. The first was serial number SA 1932769, K4 60B with a post and crosshair, the second was SA 4304417, K4 60B with post and crosshair. There was also 6 1903A4s with K4 60Bs all with post and crosshairs. I hope this helps.

[BlitzKrieg]

Jeff,

The armorers may have installed those scope on a4's because they had the scopes on hand ,not because it was a standard scope for the A4. Same for a Kollmorgen scope. Two years ago,I talked to Maj.Jim Land USMC sniper expert and he categorically said the Weaver K4 and Kollmorgen were not used on any USMC 03A4's in Korean or Viet Nam wars.

There are two standards happening in any conversation on this. First is what CMP says is legal for their vintage sniper match. Second is what was issued and type standard for a military issued sniper rifle.

You can surmise, deduce, guess, propose any answer here. If Weavers were used, it was not formally an approved standard issue scope for the A4. You can also add the Kollmorgen scopes and ART scopes to the mix.

What is lacking and would be greatly appreciated is a war time Viet Nam era photo of a 03A4 with non standard scope on it. That would conclusively end discussion .

I really don't care what anyone puts on their 03A4 but if its a sniper match, fantasy scoped rifles ought not be competing against legitimate 03A4 with military type issued standard scopes . You shoot an A4 with K4 Weaver on it and beat me with my 03A4 and Lyman Alaskan... CMP may say that is Kosher but the ethics of that stink. 4x Weaver fantasy scoped A4 beats a A4 with 2.5 power original scope and what we have here is Bravo Sierra

[jeff p]

I can understand your point of view on the Weaver K4 used in a match against your Lyman, but all I was bring to light was what was in the inventory at Quanitico. I know Maj. Land also he has gotten some of the scopes for his collection from me. My USMC Unertl came from him in a trade for some of my scopes. I also have talked to him about the use and he said the same thing to me. All I wanted to do is let people know what I saw there.

[BlitzKrieg]

I am told there is a 03A4 with the K4 scope on it , displayed at USMC museum.

I intend to go look and see i f that is factual.If its there, I will ask to see the curator and
attempt to find out some history of the rifle. Since I live near base, I will go see BLDG 2121
and attempt to get more history on that sighting of A4's with Weaver K4 scopes.

I'd love to validate the K4 or the Kollmorgen Bear Cub as officially used by the military on the 03A4. For me, I got to get something that has some sticking power historically as fact. Right now, I only have suspicions and they don't count.

[cplnorton]

It would be really nice if we could find more pictures of the rifles themselves. I know I've been studying them hard for a year now trying to find as many pictures as I can find. Other than the model 70 and M1D from this time period, you just can't find any pics.

Heck I've been trying to find one pic of a MC1952 and I cannot find one actual picture taken while in service. And I have never seen a pic of a 1903A4 in the Marines past Korea.

I've tried some really weird sources too, thinking I might run across something. But it's just something you do not see for whatever reason.

Anyone else having any better luck?

[jeff p]

I was able to get the serial numbers of the !903A3s that the Marines converted to A4s as well as the serial numbers of the a4s there, I also looked at and recorded the serial numbers and condition of the M1Cs. Everything was handled with white gloves on your hands. At that time they did not have a Kollmorgen for their display and a friend of mine lent one to them. They did have 6 or more Unertls that they showed me. It took me a little over 6 months to get permission to get into Bldg. 2121 and probably would not have happened with out the help of a retired Lt Col. friend. Just a quick note on the Kollmorgen, The gentleman that worked for Kollmorgen and designed the Clicker Knobs for on the Bear Cub lives in Northern Va. and he is a wealth of knowledge on it. i talked to him a number of times and he still has the original drawing he did on the design. Quite interesting to look at.

[cplnorton]

Jeff P, I PM'd you. I think you and I are chasing many of the same cats. :)

I would welcome the opportunity to talk to you and exchange info.

[musketshooter]

Until I see a Tech Manual that specifically states the Weaver B scope is authorized, I will never believe they were approved for use on the A3. There is to much wishful thinking that is stated as fact on this subject.

[Randy A]

jeff p, sent you a pm

[Cecil]

A few years ago at an Austin gun show a friend showed me his Fathers documented Vietnam Nam bring backs. One was an 03A4 with a K4 60B. I was very heavy into A4's at the time and remember it well.

[stan4]

Interesting thread on the Weaver K4 60-B!

Is there a "Tech Manual that specifically states the Weaver B scope is authorized" on the M1D? Obviously, there are Military M1D 1 inch mounts. And the Military has sold surplus 1 inch M1D mounts with K4 60-B scopes. Is the use of the K4 60-B covered in a Tech Manual for any weapon system?

Best Regards,

[Col. Colt]

If the 03A4 was never used, why the 1970 publication of a new Field Manual for it? It is an Army pub, so maybe the Marines no longer had any - or didn't care about the publication - and just "used what they had" as Marines have always had to do.

If the Weaver K4 60-B was a Vietnam era addition, it might have came too late to be included in any Springfield M1903 Manual - the last 03 manual was published in 1970 - for the M1903A4 - and the M84 was the expected "standard" scope by "the System". That does not mean a quantity of Weavers was not purchased and used to cover a shortage "in country", quickly - or by specific request. Uncle Sam bought a LOT of stuff from everybody during Vietnam - needed or not - that was placed "in inventory". My question would be, if that is so, was there ever a National Stock Number issued to this scope? When? Or a contract number in the same time period to Weaver?

And a local unit still could have done it - off the regular Ordnance books. If we could establish how many US Sniper rifles exist as DOCUMENTED bring backs with this scope (owner's testimony would be helpful, if not definitive) - even two or three - from Vietnam - it would seem to prove they were done that way, during a shooting war - and are Real. The FBI reportedly had some Weaver K4 equipped M1903A4s - maybe they have some transfer documentation from the military. CC

[bigskybound]

The photo attached is of an A4 with Weaver scope that, IIRC, came with Bring Back papers from Vietnam. Story, as I recall, was that the US provided ARVN with a number of A4s with Weaver scopes.

[BlitzKrieg]

C'mon guys, if you can't document something, then its pure speculation.

There are issued scopes on sniper rifles and then there are fantasy sniper rifles as seen
at CMP vintage sniper matches with civilian scopes.

Lets not be Clintons and change reality to fit an agenda.

[jgaynor]

The photo attached is of an A4 with Weaver scope that, IIRC, came with Bring Back papers from Vietnam. Story, as I recall, was that the US provided ARVN with a number of A4s with Weaver scopes.

Is this rifle s/n 3408455 by any chance?

[Col. Colt]

We're trying to determine what was REALLY Used - regardless of what was "official" in publications written far from the battle front - in both place and time. Being dogmatic and expecting everything to exactly comply with documents during shooting wars shows a lack of understanding of military affairs and history.

There is at least a reasonable question, as M1903A4s found in Marine inventory (and thus possible USMC issue) - and also in FBI inventory (who got them from the military, directly) have the same Weaver scopes. Calling them "fantasy rifles" is a bit uncharitable, and may prove to be a premature falsehood, when documentation surfaces, as it has on a Great Many military articles - totally changing what we thought we "KNEW" "For Certain". Wars are fluid things - and a place where expediency can change things - and not be recorded.... Then we must rely on the people who were there, and hunt down the fragmentary evidence - things are not always as they seem. CC

[pmclaine]

I was able to get the serial numbers of the !903A3s that the Marines converted to A4s as well as the serial numbers of the a4s there, I also looked at and recorded the serial numbers and condition of the M1Cs. Everything was handled with white gloves on your hands. At that time they did not have a Kollmorgen for their display and a friend of mine lent one to them. They did have 6 or more Unertls that they showed me. It took me a little over 6 months to get permission to get into Bldg. 2121 and probably would not have happened with out the help of a retired Lt Col. friend. Just a quick note on the Kollmorgen, The gentleman that worked for Kollmorgen and designed the Clicker Knobs for on the Bear Cub lives in Northern Va. and he is a wealth of knowledge on it. i talked to him a number of times and he still has the original drawing he did on the design. Quite interesting to look at.

Id love to see those drawings of how the Kollmorgen clicker scope caps were engineered. They are supposed to have a fantastic feel even better than some of todays high end optics.

When I got a more appropriate scope for my M40A1 I traded the Weaver K10 60-B that was riding it for this 4X Kollmorgen...
http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af178/pmclaine/P5036865_zpsxiiiwlep.jpg (http://s1005.photobucket.com/user/pmclaine/media/P5036865_zpsxiiiwlep.jpg.html)

http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af178/pmclaine/P5036864_zpsjleybala.jpg (http://s1005.photobucket.com/user/pmclaine/media/P5036864_zpsjleybala.jpg.html)

http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af178/pmclaine/P5036864_zpsjleybala.jpg (http://s1005.photobucket.com/user/pmclaine/media/P5036864_zpsjleybala.jpg.html)

Its a fantastic scope that deserves a better purpose than riding my 10-22.