Took an educated (?) chance.....

[Brad]

I think I know about just enough to be dangerous?
Went to the auction I mentioned in an earlier thread. Pretty quickly determined that the advertised Krag carbines were all just cut down rifles. But the did have seberal very nice condition un cut rifles all in pretty nice condition.
But what caught my eye were three shorter, but full stocked rifles / carbines? that were also described in my Poyer book as being modified in the Phillipines.
All three were fairly good condition, but the best one also had the end of the barrel turned to accept the bayonet, also had the "proud" wood at the bayonet band, was a model 99 on the reciever, had a sling, a great cartouch and was in very good condition.
The s/n is 230401.
I havnt had an opportunity to dig any deeper, but I took a chance and bought it after the bidding for $500.00.
I would be happy to send any photos to anyone direct that might care to offer an opinion?
I cant put pics on this site but would send dirct?
Thanks in advance,
Brad

[dave]

Sounds like it may be a School rifle, barrel must be 22" as they were converted using 99 Carbines. It would not be from the Philippines as none are know to have been sent here. They were given or left with the constabulary in the Islands. Much more info is needed and yes pictures. Especially pics of the end of the stock where it was cut down. Send to me and I will post for the experts to go over, or perhaps they will offer to accept pics. (save time). What sight does it have at front. Workmanship excellent? Many Krags were cut down for VFW & AL organizations, usually 24". davcath55@gmail.com PS: I did not check serial number to see if a carbine.

[Dick Hosmer]

You would seem to have found what is commonly called a "school gun", officially the "Model 1899 Carbine Altered For Knife Bayonet and Gunsling". The original design was produced, at Manila Arsenal, to arm the (short-statured) Philippine Constabulary, a native police force with US Army officers. No specimens are known to exist in the U.S. However, someone decided that a similar arm could be made up and provided, or sold, to the "ROTC" units at various colleges in the States. About 7,000 carbines were so converted, circa 1910, mostly at Springfield. $500 would be a very good price, so long as it is authentic.

They should have the following features:

(1) Model 1899 receiver in the first block (230401 is fine - mine is 227613, shown here)
(2) Carbine barrel - 22" - with a reduced diameter ring at the muzzle, cut just to the front of the existing sight base.
(3) A modified M1898 rifle stock, expertly shortened, with an almost invisible plug at front. Most will have a small [JFC] cartouche, but a few retained the original [JSA/date] mark.
(4) Proper upper band, cold-pressed to enlarge it to fit the slightly larger barrel diameter, with a taper ground on the front of the bayonet lug (for the 1905 bayonet latch, which is slightly different than the Krag).
(5) Most will have a M1901 carbine rear sight.

SLIGHT differences (such as a different rear sight) may be observed on a case-by-case basis, but should be viewed with some caution. Definite deal-killers: barrel other than 22", barrel without ring, banded M1903 front sight, any sort of crude workmanship whatsoever. These pieces may have been alterations, but when sent out were as perfect as any other Springfield product.

32435

[Brad]

Thanks gentlemen for getting back. I very much appreciate it.
I think this is what I have her. There were two other very similiar rifles at the sale but neither had the very end of the barrel cut back for the bayonet. So I held off and went only for this one.
Dave, per your offer I will send you some photos via seperate e-mail soon as I can get to my camera.
Dick, I will address your comments as numbered.
1 The receiver is marked Model 1899 w/ s/n 230401
2. From muzzle to end of handgaurd at receiver measures 22"" exactley and the cit back at the muzzle is just shy of the front site base
3. There is a rectangular plug barly visable at the end of the stock. However the cartouch is "CV" which my Poyer book says that denotes Charles Valentine, model 1899 US cal 30 Carbine of 1899, altered for knife bayonet and sling.
4. Appears to be the correct upper band,
5. The rear site appears to be the model 1898 carbine site as shown on page 162 - 163 of the Poyer book. Both the base and eye pc are marked with the "C".

I guess my question is, "idid this start out as a carbine? is this actually a carbine??" If not could it be placed in a carbine stock to become a model 1899 carbine.
Or is it actually more rare and desirable as is??
Thanks so much, photos soon,
Brad

[Dick Hosmer]

That cartouche is just fine - the least desirable, for this model, would be a "normal" [JSA/date] one. The guns were modified well after standard production ceased.

I would have to believe the piece was originally a carbine, and that the 1898C sight was probably original to it.

FWIW, that sight by itself is worth - to the person who needs one - close to what you paid for the whole gun. The auction house failed in their due diligence.

Pending pictures, I would ABSOLUTELY leave it strictly alone. Once the barrel has been turned, it would be totally WRONG as a standard M1899 carbine. You have a scarce variation of a relatively uncommon gun.

[Brad]

Well, maybe I did something right for a change? I was pretty sure as I was reading thru my Krag book that when I saw the muzzle step, and then read about it, that it was not just a cut down rifle, as I think the others were.
And now that you mention why, it is obvious that to try and revert back to a carbine would be all wrong because of the step in the barrel.
I certainly appreciate all the knowledge you have shared.
There are somethings I too am somewhat knowledgable about, but Krags are not one of them. I generally try and study up on things in these situations but often there is just not time.
Thanks again, I appreciate everyones input.
Regards to all,
Brad Foust

[PhillipM]

What's the purpose of the reduced diameter ring?

[Rick the Librarian]

So a bayonet could be fitted. The carbine barrel was too big around to have a bayonet fit.

[dave]

To convert back to a carbine would be very unwise!! It is much rarer as a School Rifle then as a carbine. I would think worth more money, also. I have been looking for years and probably can no longer afford one now!

[Brad]

Thanks to you all for all the wise advice and sharing the knowledge.
As I earlier stated I am trying to concentrate on "Springfield" firearms and accourterments, etc.
This will fill a big void in my KRAG stuff.
I have only one other, a very early rifle three digit s/n. I thinki I'll let this fill a void where I wanted a carbine. This was (is) that and even another that I really wasnt aware of.
Thanks again to all.
Brad

[Kragrifle]

If you get the chance, take a look at the movie Rough Riders. All the carbines are incorrect in that they are in the longer, later stocks. More than one of them has the turned down muzzle as well. Guns are not correct, but its a great movie otherwise.

[Rick the Librarian]

Sometimes, when watching a movie, I try to imagine how hard it would be to gather a certain item used in that movie. Undoubtedly, the carbines weren't exact, but at least they took the trouble to gather carbines that LOOKED like 1896 - and didn't use '03s or Mausers. I tend to give "free passes" if I know it would be almost impossible to get the correct item.