WWI USMC Winchester A5 scope

[cplnorton]

I picked up something neat yesterday that a few of you might like to see. Its a WWI Marine Winchester A5 scope in the Mann Neidner modified mounts. Now if I could find the rifle it went on. :)

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/Winchester%20USMC%20A5%20scope/P1260721_zpslvtqqtk6.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/Winchester%20USMC%20A5%20scope/P1260726_zpsb5prxgie.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/Winchester%20USMC%20A5%20scope/P1260723_zpsgy1ftu49.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/Winchester%20USMC%20A5%20scope/P1260729_zpssahtsv2q.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/Winchester%20USMC%20A5%20scope/P1260733_zps5johhxy7.jpg

[cplnorton]

And this is the modified one compared to a normal A5 scope.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/Winchester%20USMC%20A5%20scope/P1260735_zpsu1qcjo2q.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/Winchester%20USMC%20A5%20scope/P1260734_zpswjyejgjf.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/Winchester%20USMC%20A5%20scope/P1260738_zpsgfwpckqh.jpg

[Promo]

Very nice Steve, you keep finding the stuff as it were nothing special! Only thing I wouldn't be sure about are the bases, first there are differences in color on them, secondly they are not staked on the screw holes.

[cplnorton]

Yeah I have no idea. I've never even seen another set. Knowing how and where I found the scope, I would be surprised the bases were not real, but yeah I've never seen another set. Here are some more pics.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/Winchester%20USMC%20A5%20scope/P1260802_zpsglz9cgo3.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/Winchester%20USMC%20A5%20scope/P1260804_zpsg1ycnjcb.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/Winchester%20USMC%20A5%20scope/P1260798_zpsshej5u2x.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/Winchester%20USMC%20A5%20scope/P1260811_zpsg7cnpope.jpg

[Promo]

Steve, did you get my e-mail?

[mannparks]

Great set,and the photos are very well done.
Thanks for showing.
Charles

[mannparks]

What do you have the a5 civilian mounted on?

[cplnorton]

What do you have the a5 civilian mounted on?

Nothing right now. It came on a 1903 that I swapped for a Unertl.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

The bases look as though they could be the original set - no way to tell now. Nice find. I have an extra one if you find two rifles. I would find a sales rifle of that period and mount them on it. Odds of finding one of the rifles are not good. Did it come with the issued lens attachment? I have seen only two and I own one of them (given to me). You will need a case too.

jt

[gunn308]

A Ford for a scope good trade and easier to store.

[cplnorton]

You guys should really talk Gunn308 into showing off his WWI Winchester A5 sniper. It's probably one of the only real ones out there. :)

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

A Ford for a scope good trade and easier to store.

Will you post pictures of your rifle, Gunn308?

jt

[cplnorton]

Will you post pictures of your rifle, Gunn308?

jt

He was the one with the chest with the two rifles on the USmilitariaforum. I would like to see more pics though too. :)

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

He was the one with the chest with the two rifles on the USmilitariaforum. I would like to see more pics though too. :)

I remember it, but I never saw a picture of the serial number. Replacement stock and forearm and those mysterious pipe wrench marks on the barrel. It appears to be exactly what it is claimed to be, correct mounts and replacement scope. But what happened to the scope case? The rifle was issued to Captain Frank Z. Becker at OSD as an Instructor SSS. He has a winner.

jt

[da gimp]

congrats on the beautiful scope & mounts Steve.... Your photog work is superb sir...Know that your family remains in our prayers..... Toys come, toys go... All bills get paid & family taken care of before anything else..

[cplnorton]

congrats on the beautiful scope & mounts Steve.... Your photog work is superb sir...Know that your family remains in our prayers..... Toys come, toys go... All bills get paid & family taken care of before anything else..

You know we are doing excellent! We had a tough couple years between almost loosing my son and my wife had brain surgery. lol No joke on that either. They removed about a softball size of her skull to get in there.

But no I cannot complain at all. Everyone is healthy. The kids love school and the wife just got a promotion at work. :)

God is good! Thanks for the prayers though, they are always appreciated!

[JWM]

Steve,

I thought you had contacted me about my Winchester A5 sniper scope that I had on auction at GB not long ago, but apparently it was not you. Anyway, that scope along with its bases, screws, and leather lens covers now reside in a private, highly advanced military collection. The bases also had the stake marks.

You have a fine looking scope there, and it is good to know that you are helping to advance the knowledge about the Corps' sniping history.

James

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Concerning the staking of the screws: Not all of the rifles assembled by Winchester had staked screws. I have had the privilege of seeing several all original sniper rifles with their accompanying gear, and two of them had no stake marks on the mount screws. Each sniper was issued a set of special gear along with his rifle. I have never seen a rifle with all its gear posted on any forum. I guess it was difficult to walk off with all the gear. A large number of Marines kept their scopes, but a prolonged search showed they (the existing sets matched to known snipers) all have something in common other than being trained as a sniper. I always wondered how an equipment conscious bunch like the Corps would allow issued gear to walk off.

jt

[JWM]

jt, I'd not doubt that at all, however, when attempting to authenticate any item every little bit of knowledge helps to this end. In the case of the package that I sold to the aforementioned collector, the very fact that the bases were staked played a vital role in the sale in that they were, in my mind and, perhaps, his mind as well, that all items were more likely than not all original.

As for the Corps maintaining tight standards on military property, you are correct, but sometimes they simply don't want to fool with some issues. For example, I had been the senior enlisted member of the very first official sniper school during the pre-Nam era in Hawaii. And, about the time I had completed the course, the 1st Marine Brigade turned in their M-1's for the M-14's, all except those of us that were company snipers and rifle team members. Conseuqently, when I tried to turn in my M-1 about eight to ten months later to battalion supply, they refused to take it, since that change-over was complete as they saw it. My platoon sergeant took it, and he might have still had it when he retired. He was an old WWII vet as were all of the platoon sergeants in Mike 3/4 at that time.

[cplnorton]

James, I sent you a PM. It sounds like you were present during a very interesting time in Marine Corps sniper history and I would love to interview you. Semper Fi.

Steve

[JWM]

Hi Steve,

I've answered your PM.

I don't know about the time being interesting unless it had to do with liberty! :icon_lol: Seriously, I never did put my sniper training to use in the Nam, so you might be better served contacting the Marines at the scout sniper association, or attempting to contact retirees Col. Dave Willis and Major Jim Land in Virginia. That said, I can speak with some authority about the first sniper school class that was conducted by Brigade Schools. That class was made up of twelve or thirteen non-rates from the 4th Marine Regiment at Kaneohe Bay, plus two officers, and was conducted at Puuloa Rifle Range in 1962.

James

[PhillipM]

Hi Steve,

I've answered your PM.

I don't know about the time being interesting unless it had to do with liberty! :icon_lol: Seriously, I never did put my sniper training to use in the Nam, so you might be better served contacting the Marines at the scout sniper association, or attempting to contact retirees Col. Dave Willis and Major Jim Land in Virginia. That said, I can speak with some authority about the first sniper school class that was conducted by Brigade Schools. That class was made up of twelve or thirteen non-rates from the 4th Marine Regiment at Kaneohe Bay, plus two officers, and was conducted at Puuloa Rifle Range in 1962.

James

Shooting a match at Puuloa in the extinct volcano is on my bucket list if I ever get to Hawaii.

[JWM]

I've shot a few matches at Puuloa, and I think that you would enjoy shooting there if the range still exists, but I think you have it mixed up with the rifle range at Kbay, which is located in an extinct volcano crater. Did a whole lot of shooting there.

I like your flag! My ancestors moved into the southern part of Mississippi about 1814, or earlier, in what is now Wilkinson and Lawrence counties, and by 1835 they were in Tippah, Carroll, and Lowndes counties just to name a few. All four of my great grandfathers wore the gray, and all of their brothers did as well save for maybe one or two that were too young. One with the 17th MS infantry, one in the 31st LA infantry, and two in Texas Cavalry units.

Happy thanksgiving to you and yours!!!!!

James

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

jt, I'd not doubt that at all, however, when attempting to authenticate any item every little bit of knowledge helps to this end. In the case of the package that I sold to the aforementioned collector, the very fact that the bases were staked played a vital role in the sale in that they were, in my mind and, perhaps, his mind as well, that all items were more likely than not all original.

As for the Corps maintaining tight standards on military property, you are correct, but sometimes they simply don't want to fool with some issues. For example, I had been the senior enlisted member of the very first official sniper school during the pre-Nam era in Hawaii. And, about the time I had completed the course, the 1st Marine Brigade turned in their M-1's for the M-14's, all except those of us that were company snipers and rifle team members. Conseuqently, when I tried to turn in my M-1 about eight to ten months later to battalion supply, they refused to take it, since that change-over was complete as they saw it. My platoon sergeant took it, and he might have still had it when he retired. He was an old WWII vet as were all of the platoon sergeants in Mike 3/4 at that time.


Do you know my buddy, Maj. Jim Land? Every time I see Jim, I have the urge to salute the crusty old Marine.

Staking is the easiest thing to fake there is. Never depend on that one trait. What kind of package did you sell? I mean what was in the package? It may have been me that contacted you. I don't remember.

jt

PS

My great grandfather enlisted in Montgomery's Calvary in 1861 at 18 yrs old, which later became Hilliard's Legion of the Alabama Light Artillery. I still have his rifle (his last one).

[JWM]

Steve: In reference to help better identify your scope's bases, you might want to compare them with the pictures and specs shown in Brophy's book about the Springfield 1903, if you have not already done so.

jt:

We have exchanged emails in the past about sniping items, their history, and the sniper school that I was a member of that was born out of Major Land's work, but it's been a good while since that time. Do you still, or were you then, intending to publish the findings of your research at some point in the future or not?

Yes, I've had the good fortune to have met your good friend Jim in person, regrettably, only once. It was indeed an honor, but I found him to be easy going and friendly and not crusty at all.

The items that I sold were the scope, mounts, bases with screws, and leather lens cover.

Which state and county(ies) did Montgomery's Cavalry represent, jt, was it Alabama as well? PM if you will on this point and any that are not on topic since I stray from topics all too often, and I don't want to hijack Steve's thread.

James

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Smokeaterpilot, check your messages.

jt

[Promo]

Jim, this is the cover of a late USMC type leather carrying pouch, with the woven sling (not the early WWI type). It reads "919026". This serial is not SRS listed, nor close to any "SGS" listing in SRS.

Below that is another serial number, lined out. I cannot make it out what it reads.

Would you agree that this was most probably an USMC sniper rifle?

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Jim, this is the cover of a late USMC type leather carrying pouch, with the woven sling (not the early WWI type). It reads "919026". This serial is not SRS listed, nor close to any "SGS" listing in SRS.

Below that is another serial number, lined out. I cannot make it out what it reads.

Would you agree that this was most probably an USMC sniper rifle?

Rather difficult to make an assessment based on a serial number found on a scope case not made for the A5 sniper rifle scopes. The SN is in an interesting range where a small sample of A5 rifles (third set) overlap M1913 rifles. Georg, I believe you own one of the SGS rifle closest to it - 922150, and you know what scope is on it.

Any history with that scope case?

jt

[Promo]

Hi Jim, the history is that it came from eBay .. ;). Yes, know on the closeby M1913 scoped rifles.

The scope can is for the Neidner modified mounts. I know that one of the scopes has the rear ring wrong way round mounted. Haven't had time to correct it yet.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Hi Jim, the history is that it came from eBay .. ;). Yes, know on the closeby M1913 scoped rifles.

The scope can is for the Neidner modified mounts. I know that one of the scopes has the rear ring wrong way round mounted. Haven't had time to correct it yet.


Georg,

What is inside the cap of that scope case? Is that the scope case with the serial number on the top?

jt

[Promo]

The shown picture with the serial number is the top of the cap of the top case as in the attached picture. These are my three A5 scope cans.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

VERY nice, Georg. Coupled with that can, that is almost certainly a Win A5 sniper rifle serial number. Another data point.

Do any of the cans have the range settings glued inside the cap?

jt

[Promo]

Nope, none of them. Unfortunately.