Type 99 question?

[gghbi]

OK, If I have a Arisaka Type 99 what is the significance of having both an intact mum and a matching bolt? I understand and there are lots of Type 99s out there, but less with intact mums, less with matching bolts, and even less yet with both. Just how uncommon is this combination?

Thanks in advance for your wisdom.

[rockisle1903]

not very uncommon at all...

[Deano41]

The missing Mum and the mismatched bolts are two separate stories unto themselves. If you have a complete rifle, AND it has not been messed with (sanded stock, missing or mismatched parts), that is a plus. Congrats. :>)

[psteinmayer]

Agree with Deano. Count your self lucky, and go do some happy shooting!

Just out of curiosity, is your stock a duffle cut? You would find the stock sawn under the barrel band if it is....

[psteinmayer]

Oh yeah... by the way, there are serial numbers literally all over the T-99s. Not only the bolt, but the safety, firing pin, bands, extractor, etc. The list goes on and on.

Do you know what arsenal and series your Arisaka is? Post some pictures so we can enjoy it too!

[dave]

Some early 99's had assemble numbers, not serial numbers on various parts. I have one.

[Clark Howard]

To answer your specific question, the presence of the intact mum indicates that the rifle was captured before the end of the war. The mum was ground off by agreement with the McArthur Occupation to avoid embarrassment for the Japanese emperor. Regards, Clark

[gghbi]

Thanks to all for your collective wisdom. From perusing the net, I understood the mum issue, but was not as clear on the matching bolt issue, (something about piles of bolts and piles of rifles, or removing the bolt while being taken back to the states) and thus the question about the combination.

[psteinmayer]

I'm lucky in that both my Series 31 Toyo Kogyo (in original condition and all correct) and my Series 7 Nagoya (sadly sporterized) have matching numbers throughout. The Toyo has the mum and the Nagoya is ground.

[Embalmer]

Then have ones like mine, that was found in the attic of the guys home, who sent it back after he passed were still sealed in original shipping crate sent home, but mum fell victim to the phnumatic grinder before boxing...

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff186/maninblue1861/336047_4110499251416_659864492_o_zpszwaq1nq8.jpg (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/maninblue1861/media/336047_4110499251416_659864492_o_zpszwaq1nq8.jpg.h tml)

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff186/maninblue1861/336070_4110501531473_439309698_o_zpsieop03wu.jpg (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/maninblue1861/media/336070_4110501531473_439309698_o_zpsieop03wu.jpg.h tml)

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff186/maninblue1861/IMAG0235.jpg (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/maninblue1861/media/IMAG0235.jpg.html)

[Deano41]

Save the boxes, they are worth money to a collector. Unfortunately one of the rifles looks to have been refinished, dropping the value. The other one looks to be in original condition. Depending on the arsenal and series, along with the original crate, it's a great "package".

I have yet to read actual documents on the grinding of the "mum". Many "theories", but nothing in writing. As to the mismatched bolts, the most accepted version is the Navy made the troops take the bolts out of the rifles, and they were thrown into a container until the ship returned to the States. The bolts were then handed out, without consideration to "matching numbers". (I"m sure someone coming home after a long separation, would NOT be concerned that bolt he got for his "souvenir" wasn't matching.)

[Embalmer]

Mine wasn't refinished. It's a series 31 from k [something] from hiroshima district. Top Def looks like was hit with a grinder (though still rounded and not so indented)

Tack driver at 200 yards. Guy said his dad told him was grabbed it at okinowa (bought rifle not story).

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff186/maninblue1861/FB_IMG_1446025652616_zpsfjwtizwl.jpg (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/maninblue1861/media/FB_IMG_1446025652616_zpsfjwtizwl.jpg.html)

[psteinmayer]

Series 31 is from the Toyo Kogyo arsenal. The series will depend on the arsenal, i.e. series 1 through 9 are from Nagoya, Series 31 through 36 are Toyo Kogyo, etc. Series 31 is a first series... just like mine, and should have the chrome bore, AA sight, Monopod, and the whole shebang. As the war progressed, Japan got less and less concerned about features on the T-99s, so things like monopods disappeared, and the sights got more rudimentary... going from AA, to a simple ladder, to a block with a simple peep that was un-adjustable.

Use this sheet to identify Type 99 rifles and features: http://www.gunboards.com/sites/banzai/DataSheets/M99/M99Data.htm#Model_99

[Michaelp]

There is no hard and fast rule concerning grinding of Mums.
It was done at various times and places and signifies nothing in terms of where it was acquired.
Probably more pieces acquired in the field retain them, but not all.

The grinding also abated somewhat as time passed after the war.
Nobody has ever found any rules or regs regarding this.

I have a nice unground piece with an mismatched bolt. The vet claims it came off a body that way-I'm not sure I believe him.
I have known him all my life.
I have heard the bolt in a bucket story enough to believe it, but I have about 10 others that are matched.
3 are ground, 2 have chisel marks. Bayonet strikes are a myth-try it.

[dave]

Thanks to all for your collective wisdom. From perusing the net, I understood the mum issue, but was not as clear on the matching bolt issue, (something about piles of bolts and piles of rifles, or removing the bolt while being taken back to the states) and thus the question about the combination.

A mis-matched bolt is a minus on any rifle (yes some commercial rifles had numbered bolts) but especially so on military rifles. Some military had serial numbers on many parts, also a minus if not matched. Mis-matched parts can be for many reasons, some legitimate such as armorers repair in the field, GI mixing parts. I hesitate to call all such rifles "fakes", a word I think is used too often without proof. (To me 'fake' indicates some thing made or put together up to deceive a buyer or viewer).
The bolt in one pile and rifles in another thing is mostly about Europe and even there different units handled captured weapons differently. No set, over all policy. In Japan surrendered weapons were given out to the troops and sailors, these are the ones that are ground. No orders have ever been found as to why or who ordered it done, what ever you hear is just a story, tho the one given above is the most excepted version. Japan is the only place where it was done. China, Manchuria, etc. rifles were surrendered whole. I have never seen a "duffle cut" Jap rifle. Have and had several in my collection. In europe one method of shipping was artillery shell cardboard shipping tubes. Bought fellow workers K98k., he shipped it home in one of these, it was cut. He was a tank man, 3rd. Army. It had a walnut end and a laminate stock. When asked about it he said his tank crew got together and packed their rifles up. "I most have grabbed the wrong one". Another reason for mixed parts? So there are many explainations for these things, nothing was uniform, varied unit to unit, theater to theater!

[psteinmayer]

My Toyo Kogyo is a "Duffle Cut." Before I discovered the cut, I had never heard of the term in an Arisaka either. I repaired the cut a couple years ago, and posted my repairs here... but you'll have to go way back to find the thread. I agree that it's almost unheard of in Jap rifles though...

BTW, the only number that doesn't match on it is the action dust cover because I purchased that at a gun show (it was missing)... but all other numbers match! My son shot it at Camp Perry last July.

[dave]

3321633217 Some eye candy of my small Jap collection. Ignore bottom two in first pic.(Swed's). Top in second pic is a 99 Long Rifle, only 8000 made by this arsenal. Only mum in the bunch is the 38 Carbine.

[psteinmayer]

Nice looking collection there Dave!

[dave]

Thanks. Novi this coming 28-29. I will be there on Sat. as usual. You be walking or at table? I always wear a Korea vet cap. Yeh, I'm an old fart!

[psteinmayer]

I have to drive my mother-in-law to Florida for the winter, and I'll be returning on the 28th. I'll try to make it on the 29th, but that is also iffy. If I do show up, I'll be walking around! Hopefully, I'll see ya there, but otherwise, we'll meet up at the first show next year.

[Michaelp]

I have a duffle cut T99.

In 55 years accumulating this stuff I have run into the bucket story many times, but only involving Jap rifles.

I have seen pics of piles of Mausers without bolts and in the 60s, a couple of the big importers were selling "boltless" mausers.

Never saw any quantities of bolts.

A mm bolt is a big minus no matter what the story.

[dave]

As to your last statement: It depends, many imports of the last few years have m/m bolts, and they are very hard to find otherwise. Many bring backs have m/m bolts but they usually match themselves. If it has no import stamp it is a huge plus. Bringback, that is a big plus. And in a front line repair shop many m/m parts were used to get a rifle back on the line. So your collection will be very limited without some m/m bolts, etc.
Like M1's, most if not all had/have mixed parts or if not they were "corrected" by collectors and then called 'original'. 'As original' would be correct.
Many soldiers were told to throw the bolts away when surrendering so all those missing bolts may be laying (under ground by now) in some field.

[psteinmayer]

I have a duffle cut T99.

In my opinion, I would repair the duffle cut. The reason I found mine was that the stock started moving when I shot it. Took me a few shots before I figured out what was happening. My repair worked very well and is permanent. I shoot this occasionally in CMP vintage matches, and my son shot it in the National Matches. I've attached a couple pictures of the repair:

33577
33578
33579
33580
33581

[Tuna]

Looks real nice Paul. Good job.

[psteinmayer]

Thanks very much! I posted the pictures cause I couldn't find the old thread... (I think it actually got deleted when they re-vamped the forum).

The bottom line is, although somewhat archaic to shoot, the T-99 (as well as the other Jap weapons) is a rather fun rifle. Put down the AA wings and rest it on the monopod, and other shooters at the range will ALWAYS come by and ask about it... especially if you have the action cover in place!