CMP's 1911 Notice

[Ken Hill]

Update on the legislation on the 1911 pistols. The National Defense Appropriations Act has been vetoed. We have no further information at this time.


Thank you for your support,
Mark Johnson
Chief Operating Officer


Well it's not surprising, it is disappointing '

[Dan Shapiro]

Be interesting to see why that POS in the White House vetoed the legislation.

[gwp]

Be interesting to see why that POS in the White House vetoed the legislation.

Because defense was receiving more than his pet projects.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/10/22/obama-veto-defense-authorization-bill-spending-fight/74371856/

The veto of the National Defense Authorization Act was an extraordinary use of one of the president's most powerful executive tools. While the White House had problems with some of the bill's provisions, Obama's main objection is that the bill anticipates off-budget spending to increase the defense budget without increasing domestic spending first. The president wants Congress to lift the automatic budget caps included in a 2011 budget agreement.

[Chris W.]

At some point a military funding bill will have to pass to keep the military operating. One can only hope in the new bill the section where the CMP gets the 1911's is present as well. Don't think Obama nixed the bill for just for not wanting the CMP to end up with these, think he has bigger issues in his small mind. They can't just let the military run out of funds.
Chris

[c-j]

Is obama the only president to veto a defense spending bill?

[thorin6]

It appears that the NDAA passed by the Senate and sent to the President contained the part to transfer the M1911/1911A1s. Section 1087 of the November 3 bill as it went to the floor (as best I can determine) contained the language "the Secretary may transfer to the corporation, [CMP I assume] in accordance with the procedure prescribed in this subchapter, surplus caliber .45 M1911/M1911A1 pistols and spare parts . . . [that] are surplus to the requirements of the Department of the Army . . ." and the transfer is limited to no more than 10,000 pistols per year.
I hope more information will be made available.

[Chris W.]

Anytime the wording " may transfer " is used, you can bet this president will not approve, or will block the transfer in anyway he or his minions can. Think the best wording for that bill should be " must transfer ". If this ever comes to pass, and the CMP can transfer these and sell them, I'm not looking for much of a deal here. Looking at how the CMP carefully grades the M-1's it still has, and the prices, you could expect them to do the same with any 1911's they end up with. 10,000 pistols a year will be sold out very fast. I'll still be in line to get one, but I bet it won't be cheap. Also speculate that any of high value will go on their auction site, no luck of the draw.
Chris

[Johnny P]

Didn't LBJ stop the sale of U.S. military handguns to citizens in 1968?

[PhillipM]

Is obama the only president to veto a defense spending bill?

I read somewhere it's one of only five bills he has vetoed. It appears the new compromise that as far as I know still have the 1911's in it, has been sent back to Obama with enough votes to be veto proof. I guess some spineless congresscritter or two could change their vote if Obama vetoes it again, but I'd say that's not likely.

Like the IHC's, I'm glad I already have a nice 1911 because I foresee frothing at the mouth and mortgage loans being made to buy a pistol from the CMP.

[westgard]

The text of this is pretty interesting. I am sure it will morph more as the bill gets reconciled between the house and senate version.
A couple of interesting points - 10,000 units annually, plus a requirement for the CMP to get an FFL to conduct any and all handgun sales. I know that some politicians were complaining about the 'lack of traceability' of these awful, dangerous guns getting out into the hands of the general public....
From JOINT EXPLANATORY STATEMENT TO ACCOMPANY S.
1356, THE NATIONAL DEFENSE AUTHORIZATION
ACT FOR FISCAL YEAR 2016
The House bill contained a provision (sec. 1085) that
would authorize the transfer of surplus firearms to the Civilian
Marksmanship Program (CMP).
The Senate amendment contained no similar provision.
The Senate recedes with a clarifying amendment that
establishes a pilot program limited to .45 caliber handguns and
restricts the amount of handguns that can be transferred to the
CMP to no more than 10,000 units annually. Additionally, it
requires the CMP to provide a report to Congress after the
conclusion of the pilot program, obtain a federal firearm
license to conduct any and all handgun sales, and adhere to all
local, state, and federal laws in respect to handgun sales.

[Ken Hill]

This was in my mornings email. Let's hope so!

An update on the 1911 pistols. The revised NDAA has passed the House and Senate. It is on its way to the President's desk for signature. We have no further information at this time.

Thank you for your support,
Mark Johnson
Chief Operating Officer

[Cosine26]

CMP and the M1911
I do not wish to "rain on anyone's parade" or be the harbinger of doom but I should like to put forth some thoughts to consider.
It is my opinion that, even if the CMP does gain owner ship of the M1911 & 1911A1 pistols presently in the army inventory, it will face an enormous problem in selling them to members. Given the myriad of federal, state, county and city laws ,ordnances, and regulation controlling the sale and possession and ownership of handguns by local populations. As a private corporation(] "The CPRPFS is a tax-exempt non-profit 501(c)(3) corporation chartered by the U.S. Congress, but is not an agency of the U.S. government (Title 36, United States Code, Section 40701 et seq.). Apart from a donation of surplus .22 and .30 caliber rifles in the Army's inventory to the CMP, the CMP receives no federal funding." This was extracted from the CMP Page)the CMP will probably have to employ a rather extensive legal staff to comply with all such laws and ordnances before selling and shipping these handguns. At one time, the CMP could ship rifles directly to purchases with no problems. I know that in the state of California and perhaps many other jurisdictions, mandate that all firearms must now go through a licensed firearms dealer. In some states, the dealer must have special authorization to sell handguns over and above the federal laws. There are other peculiarities . In the state of New York, NYC pistol licenses are recognized throughout New York state, but licenses issued by authorized authorities outside NYC are not recognized by NYC. Some states require that applicants pass certain tests before purchasing a handgun.
Let us look at some practical considerations.
1. What is the condition of these pistols?
2. Are they all RFI (ready for issue) or are some of them retrograde material turned in to supply for overhaul?
3. I would assume that they are of both the M1911 and the M1911A1 configuration. The M1911 was superseded by the M1911A1 in 1921. I believe that the last procurement of M1911 series was in 1945. These are not pristine collector items but are/were items of issue for use as tools of the services.
4. Many of them have been overhauled more than, once though there might be some in pristine in "new in the box" condition (very few I would think).
5. The US government wants to dispose of the them because of the cost of maintaining them. Can the CMP provide the storage and security management for a lesser cost.?
6. Does this disposition include spare parts ?
7. These factors must be taken into consideration when pricing these pistols for sale. What if the established price exceeds the cost of a new M1911 model from Colt or other manufacturers? Does the collector value warrant such a larger price? That is for the collector to answer. When one wants to restore one of these to a better condition-what is the availability and cost to do so. A number of years ago I purchased a new in the wrap new Colt M1911 slide with all of the internal parts for $80.00. What would that cost today - if available?
There are I suspect other questions that need be asked.
I expect that I shall get some feed back to these comments.

[blackhawk2]

they will break them down and sell them as kits, just like the m-14.....they will make a ton of money.....maybe enough to open an indoor range in Ohio.....regards....alex

[Shooter5]

All valid points. There are hurdles to deal with; the transfer alone will likely dictate a mandatory FFL transaction. I estimate price range averaging $1500 to $2000 with unique examples going to auction. Most pistols will be mix master and not in OEM condition. Neither of those factors concerns me in the slightest and I will be willing to purchase one regardless of the requirements.

[Johnny P]

$1500 to $2000 rebuilds are no prize. They can be found for less than that on today's market, and you get to pick out the one you want.

[Ken Hill]

All good points and taking into consideration that all these pistols will have to go thru an FFL That said they will be C&R compliant. Also states that do not have laws allowing rifle imports becUse of local law seems not to have been affecred by CMP transactions.

My guess is the pistols will be graded and the good examples will be culled out. Most likely the box and the "paperwork" will be the real commodity.

[PhillipM]

I don't know why everyone says they will have to go through FFL's when the Garands don't... well at least in the free states. It may turn into a situation where many can't buy them due to their local and state laws.

[Chris W.]

I agree that in some states or cities it will be more difficult, that said the 10,000 a year pistol sale will be sell out fast. There might be a few high value " new in the box " pistols in the group, I'd look for those to go on the auction site for the highest sale price they might bring. Think the CMP leadership is sharp enough to figure out that a rebuild sold through them isn't worth more than what they bring in the open market. In their charter they are required to sell for " market value ". That's why their prices keep going up. Can't imagine what my IHC M1 would go for now, I got my for $165 way back when. That market value will very depending on what's for sale, expect for that to be reflected in the price. These pistols are classified as a C&R, and those CMP members having one, and living outside of California and New York and DC should have minimum problem with a transfer. Those not having a C&R license could do a normal FFL transfer with few problems, or the same as a normal handgun purchase. I don't see this as a problem for the CMP. All of this is putting the cart in front of the horse, lets see if the CMP can actually get these moved to their warehouse, think that's the first step. To that end I wish the CMP the best of luck with this. Our parents and Grandparents paid for these in sweat, taxes and blood. They should be returned to American families.
Chris

[PhillipM]

I agree that in some states or cities it will be more difficult, that said the 10,000 a year pistol sale will be sell out fast. There might be a few high value " new in the box " pistols in the group, I'd look for those to go on the auction site for the highest sale price they might bring. Think the CMP leadership is sharp enough to figure out that a rebuild sold through them isn't worth more than what they bring in the open market. In their charter they are required to sell for " market value ". That's why their prices keep going up. Can't imagine what my IHC M1 would go for now, I got my for $165 way back when. That market value will very depending on what's for sale, expect for that to be reflected in the price. These pistols are classified as a C&R, and those CMP members having one, and living outside of California and New York and DC should have minimum problem with a transfer. Those not having a C&R license could do a normal FFL transfer with few problems, or the same as a normal handgun purchase. I don't see this as a problem for the CMP. All of this is putting the cart in front of the horse, lets see if the CMP can actually get these moved to their warehouse, think that's the first step. To that end I wish the CMP the best of luck with this. Our parents and Grandparents paid for these in sweat, taxes and blood. They should be returned to American families.
Chris

If I buy a Garand out of state from anyone other than the CMP, I need an FFL 03 or shipped to an FFL 01 for transfer, same as a pistol.

Why would the 1911's be different?

[Chris W.]

Wouldn't be any different Phillip, exactly the same. One difference is, last time I checked, the CMP runs a Brady Check on all firearms purchases. A CMP transfer to a FFL requires no Brady Check to either a 03 or a 01 FFL, and that said, a person without a FFL would be run by a transfer dealer in his own state at the time they fill out a 4473 form and transfer the pistol. No different than that Garand bought out of state. A 03 FFL could just pick it up, or get it shipped direct to the address listed on the 03 FFL ( as I have many times before ) and be in compliance with the law. Some states ( CA ) don't allow this to happen, and force you to use a 01 FFL, but most still do. Still we are putting the cart before the horse some. CMP might come up with it's own process based in it's need to comply with the law, these could differ some.
Chris

[PhillipM]

CMP and the M1911
I do not wish to "rain on anyone's parade" or be the harbinger of doom but I should like to put forth some thoughts to consider.
It is my opinion that, even if the CMP does gain owner ship of the M1911 & 1911A1 pistols presently in the army inventory, it will face an enormous problem in selling them to members. Given the myriad of federal, state, county and city laws ,ordnances, and regulation controlling the sale and possession and ownership of handguns by local populations. As a private corporation(] "The CPRPFS is a tax-exempt non-profit 501(c)(3) corporation chartered by the U.S. Congress, but is not an agency of the U.S. government (Title 36, United States Code, Section 40701 et seq.). Apart from a donation of surplus .22 and .30 caliber rifles in the Army's inventory to the CMP, the CMP receives no federal funding." This was extracted from the CMP Page)the CMP will probably have to employ a rather extensive legal staff to comply with all such laws and ordnances before selling and shipping these handguns. At one time, the CMP could ship rifles directly to purchases with no problems. I know that in the state of California and perhaps many other jurisdictions, mandate that all firearms must now go through a licensed firearms dealer. In some states, the dealer must have special authorization to sell handguns over and above the federal laws. There are other peculiarities . In the state of New York, NYC pistol licenses are recognized throughout New York state, but licenses issued by authorized authorities outside NYC are not recognized by NYC. Some states require that applicants pass certain tests before purchasing a handgun.
Let us look at some practical considerations.
1. What is the condition of these pistols?
2. Are they all RFI (ready for issue) or are some of them retrograde material turned in to supply for overhaul?
3. I would assume that they are of both the M1911 and the M1911A1 configuration. The M1911 was superseded by the M1911A1 in 1921. I believe that the last procurement of M1911 series was in 1945. These are not pristine collector items but are/were items of issue for use as tools of the services.
4. Many of them have been overhauled more than, once though there might be some in pristine in "new in the box" condition (very few I would think).
5. The US government wants to dispose of the them because of the cost of maintaining them. Can the CMP provide the storage and security management for a lesser cost.?
6. Does this disposition include spare parts ?
7. These factors must be taken into consideration when pricing these pistols for sale. What if the established price exceeds the cost of a new M1911 model from Colt or other manufacturers? Does the collector value warrant such a larger price? That is for the collector to answer. When one wants to restore one of these to a better condition-what is the availability and cost to do so. A number of years ago I purchased a new in the wrap new Colt M1911 slide with all of the internal parts for $80.00. What would that cost today - if available?
There are I suspect other questions that need be asked.
I expect that I shall get some feed back to these comments.

#1&2 should be covered by Da Gimp's post


Hey phil... they are as new from arsenal rebuild... typically all that I saw/heard about are mix masters... but are good decent 1911A1's all in .45ACP...if you get one like our county's... they are all reparked & seem to be dern nice users............ if you are looking for a pristine US&S or Ithaca... NIB or still in as issued condition with matching slide, barrel etc to receiver I think you will be disappointed...Even our M14's were bone dry... someone was kind enough to remove all of the cosmoline... & were so clean that any DI would be in tears of joy at their condition.... but needed a dab of grease & Breakfree where it is always needed on the rails etc..........to the best of my knowledge none were matching.......... (http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?55806-da-gimp-about-the-surplus-1911A1-s&p=437525#post437525)

http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?55806-da-gimp-about-the-surplus-1911A1-s&p=437525#post437525

#3 1924, but all else, correct.

#4 concur

#5 If transferred to the CMP, they are off the government's books so the cost benefit analysis is moot. I would guess the CMP would not take in more than they could handle at one time if storage space is an issue. Obviously they have storage space and security for a dwindling supply of M1 garands which take up much more space per unit than a pistol, so my SWAG is space isn't a problem. Also note both the 1911's and the CMP are in Anniston, it's not like they'd have to ship them cross country.

#6 I don't know. Of course there are dozens if not hundreds of 1911 part suppliers.

#7 The CMP charter states they must sell at fair market value.

[Andouille]

Copy/paste from the CMP website someplace under the sales information, anyone can lookit it up with a little trouble in case it was perceived I'm smart enough to have fabricated this myself:

If your State or locality requires you to first obtain a certificate, license, permit, or Firearms Owner ID card in order to possess or receive a rifle, you must enclose a photocopy of your certificate, license, permit, or card with the application for purchase. Rifle shipments to WA, NY and NJ must be made to a state licensed dealer. You must provide a copy of the dealer’s license with your order form. Rifle shipments to CA must be made to a State licensed dealer or may be made to individual homes, providing that a CA Certificate of Eligibility and a Curio and Relic License are provided. Rifle shipments to CT must be made to licensed or dealer or may be shipped directly to the customer if a C&R license is provided.

As a result of CT Bill 1160 and Bill 13-220 , which revised CT Bill 1160, all CT customers purchasing rifles to be delivered in CT must have the rifle shipped to a CT licensed dealer or must provide us with a copy of their current Type 3 (C&R) FFL license. We can ship directly to a customer's home if they possess a C&R license.

WA, NY, NJ and CT customers who have already mailed their rifle orders to CMP should provide custserve@thecmp.org with dealer information or order cancellation instructions. Information can also be faxed to 256-835-3527 or mailed to CMP Customer Service, (Attn: FFL Order), 1401 Commerce Blvd., Anniston, AL 36207.

[Andouille]

From the above it will be seen that CMP already has some experience in dealing with various state laws and whatnot. They'll do just fine.

Also, perhaps no other organization extant in the country today has more experience with receipt, storage, handling, inspection, classification, repair and distribution of obsolete U.S. surplus weaponry, not to mention importation and reclaimation of weapons on loan to foreign governments, than the CMP organization. The numbers of M1, M1903, M1917, M1 Carbine and various 22-cal target rifles that have run thru the organization since it was formed have to be staggering. They'll be able to handle it, rest assured.

[PhillipM]

It PASSED!!!


https://www.nraila.org/articles/20151125/appropriations-act-passes-with-important-pro-second-amendment-provisions

[Ken Hill]

I guess it happened with the signing of the NDAA. The Secretary of the Army is authorized to release 10000 M1911/1911A1 pistols to the CMP.

Here's a good link saving me typing. Happy Thanksgiving y'all !

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/11/25/breaking-news-it-is-now-law-the-cmp-can-sell-1911s-to-the-public-a-thanksgiving-day-miracle/

[joem]

O's only agenda is to put the GOP in the trick bag, other then climate change. He will veto any bill that will put the GOP in a bad light and he hopes to turn the voters against the GOP. Doesn't matter if the bill would be good for the country or not. His chief concern is trying to destroy the Repubs.

[Chris W.]

Very glad to see that the 1911's going to the CMP stayed with the new bill. 100,000 pistols @ 10,000 per year will go fast like the Greek returned 1903's. I'll be in line if and when the time comes. Still got to get them turned over to the CMP, and knowing this president will do anything in his powers to prevent or delay this should be expected. Be nice to get a pistol with that much history behind it, rebuilt or not.
Chris

[Tuna]

There is one problem with this. The wording states the Secretary of the Army MAY release to CMP 10,000 in a pilot program. It do not state he SHALL release. The Secretary of the Army is a O'Bama YES MAN. If the Pres were to say Don't release them he won't do it. So till they are release to CMP we should not be counting on it happening. I am all for it but right now I have my doubts about it.

[Chris W.]

The wording " May release " has me concerned as well. Obamas crew wouldn't release a slingshot if they had anything to say about it. That might be why they didn't make more of a fuss about the provision in the bill for the 1911's, they still have the ability to shut it down. I agree, should have been " Shall release ". Sure be glad when this fool is gone.
Chris

[Ken Hill]

The latest from the CMP regarding the 1911 program.


An update on the 1911's


The NDAA 2016 has passed. We have no further information concerning the status of the 1911s. We will update our customers as we know more. Please do not email or call with questions regarding the 1911s. Our systems are overloaded.

If you would like to sign up for our Sales Email Updates, please visit our website and SIGN UP!

For eligibility requirements for ordering through the CMP, please visit our website.

Thank you, Mark Johnson, Chief Operating Officer