View Full Version : Just took some more close up photos of...
My late 1917 dated 1903.
This rifle has a bright bore with Very sharp rifling. It's been handled and shows use, but there's no indication of it being abused. It certainly has Not been assembled from surplus parts. In my estimation, this rifle has remained in its original configuration and is a splendid example of what was coming off of the assembly line at Springfield Armory midway into the U.S. involvement in World War I. Thats something I've seldom encountered. It seems to me that the number of 1903's made in 1917 that survived that period of time (and over two Decades more) to remain in their original configuration is quite small. That's why I liked and bought this rifle.
I've never applied any linseed oil to the stock and so the sheen on the wood seems to be an old and original finish.
Any blue on the metal is what's still there of the original Armory finish. This rifle has never been overhauled or refinished. The bore is absolutely pristine looking. This rifle is the tightest assembled 1903 that I've ever owned except for the Mint 1920 National Match rifle I used to own that was equally as tight and well made. It appears to me that Seven or Eight months into our entry into the Great War, this rifle was assembled with the same attention to the Fit and Detail of wood to metal as were the rifles made in the pre war years. There is absolutely no slop or looseness in the rear sight. It is tight and smooth in operation. The slide is completely free in its travel up and down the sight ladder unless the slide binding knob is tightened. There is no looseness of the rear sight base within the sleeve. This rifle was assembled better than the ones assembled just a few months later in that same armory. The safety is crisp and smooth in operation. The 1918 dated bayonet that goes with it fits Very tight while being Very easy to attach or detach. Smooth as butter. I've never before seen a bayonet fit so perfectly to a rifle. There is no slop or movement of the mounted bayonet. If I ever sell this rifle, I want the bayonet to go with it. I think any future buyer of the rifle will appreciate that once he see's how they fit together. Like bark on a tree.
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Hi
Thats a very nice example you have. I was wondering what a similar rifle would be worth. My friend has a 1910 that is supposed to be correct and original. He threw a crazy price at me that made me say leave it in the safe. I didnt want to wast his time. I'm looking for a high price value and a low price value just to see if I can get a look at it. Maybe his value was right on? I'm just going on what he told me. He did show me his 1903A4 He says all original not rearsenaled. Not the case obvious armory referb. Thanks for any advice
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Hi
Thats a very nice example you have. I was wondering what a similar rifle would be worth. My friend has a 1910 that is supposed to be correct and original. He threw a crazy price at me that made me say leave it in the safe. I didnt want to wast his time. I'm looking for a high price value and a low price value just to see if I can get a look at it. Maybe his value was right on? I'm just going on what he told me. He did show me his 1903A4 He says all original not rearsenaled. Not the case obvious armory referb. Thanks for any advice
Oh I don't have any idea what this rifle or any other rifle should be priced at. I know what I have in mine, but that's just what I was willing to pay for it. Everyones ideas on value are different and something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it at any one time. Other fellows on the 1903 forum would have some ideas on it all though. They see a lot of the things sell and priced at collectors shows and gun stores. I don't get out or go anywhere any more so I've no idea about prices.
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Okay thanks for the reply. I checked Gun Broker and RIA auction site for a better idea on pricing. Sad to say my friend is way off on his price.
Major Tom
11-22-2015, 11:39
Very neat rifle! But, that carpet
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Really nice Fred, and nice pictures as well. You've probably been asked this before but what camera do you use?
Allen, I'm using an Apple iPhone 5.
I think that whenever one is able to look at an un-refinished or un-refurbished rifle, one can study what type of original finish was on the rifles when they came off of the assembly line at that point in time. I believe this rifle is such an example.
Duane Hansen
11-22-2015, 07:45
Fred, You have so many beautiful Rifles and I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to share pictures of them with us on a semi-regular basis. I, for one really appreciate it.
I used to have a few Springfield 03s but sold off my collection 30+ years a go. I wish now, after seeing yours, that I would have hung on to them.
Again, Thanks so much!
Duane, it brings me a lot of pleasure to be able to share the photos with you and that you like them. Thanks! :hello:
I plan on putting this rifle up for sale really soon. Hate to see it go, but it's kind of a duplicate in the rifle cabinate and so I'm wanting to use the cash for it to buy something else.
Fred, You have so many beautiful Rifles and I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to share pictures of them with us on a semi-regular basis. I, for one really appreciate it.
I used to have a few Springfield 03s but sold off my collection 30+ years a go. I wish now, after seeing yours, that I would have hung on to them.
Again, Thanks so much!
What Duane said Fred, beautiful rifle...
bombdog
Same here great photos and a great background to boot!!!
I'm glad you enjoy the photos Louis! You'd think that with all of this land around me, I'd be shooting at targets. However I don't. It upsets the horses. Besides, after living and sleeping in and firing all of the neat weaponry on a tank for 2 1/2 years (the reason I'm nearly deaf now), I don't find it very exciting to do so anymore. Heck, I've never even Fired any of my 03's. Now THAT's a shame.
dirtdigger
11-23-2015, 03:56
Great rifle, and great pics. Does anyone know when in 1917 the second stock bolt was added? thanks.
John Beard
11-23-2015, 07:57
Thanks for sharing!
I have a rifle within three thousand of yours that is convincingly a Doughboy bring-back. It came with the original sling, bayonet, scabbard, and breech cover. And it's in about the same condition. Seeing yours makes me appreciate both of ours!
Thanks again for taking the time to make and post pictures!
J.B.
p.s.,
And to dirtdigger, the date was April, 1917.
Thanks for sharing!
I have a rifle within three thousand of yours that is convincingly a Doughboy bring-back. It came with the original sling, bayonet, scabbard, and breech cover. And it's in about the same condition. Seeing yours makes me appreciate both of ours!
Thanks again for taking the time to make and post pictures!
J.B.
p.s.,
And to dirtdigger, the date was April, 1917.
John,
What is the SN of yours ?? Mine is 780693. That makes 3 of them I know of in original condition. I've seen Fred's ( in pics ) and mine. Maybe you can bring yours to B'ham next March for me to see. If Phillip comes, I'll bring mine and we can educate him on what he is looking at.
Nice rifle Fred, thanks for the new pics, they are very good quality. Telephone cameras have come so far that they make my digital SLR Pentax really out dated.
Emri
Thanks for sharing!
I have a rifle within three thousand of yours that is convincingly a Doughboy bring-back. It came with the original sling, bayonet, scabbard, and breech cover. And it's in about the same condition. Seeing yours makes me appreciate both of ours!
Thanks again for taking the time to make and post pictures!
J.B.
p.s.,
And to dirtdigger, the date was April, 1917.
John, I'm happy that you like the pictures! I really enjoy taking them.
It seems to me that correct 1903's and even incorrect 1903's that were manufactured in 1917 are much more difficult to find than those made later in the war. Those that were sent to Europe for the war must've been exposed to a great deal of battlefield wear and tear that necessitated their overhaul and upgrade. These three mentioned, yours, Emri's and mine, are about the only three that I can think of that are still in original configuration.
Honestly, I've seen more correct and original pre war 1903's than I have from 1917. Maybe I need to get out more.
Interestingly, when I think about it, the C7 bolt that I now have on the 1917 rifle is the one that came on the Rod Bayonet 1903 and the bolt that came on the RB 1903 was in fact the very bolt that is now on this rifle and that is of the correct type for it. What are the odds of THAT happening?
I'm going to regret putting this rifle up on Gunbroker in a day or so, (maybe tonight) but it will be replaced with an 1896 Krag rifle that I've been wanting to get back from a buddy of mine for decades now. Its stock and hand guard are both made of Italian Walnut which are in Mint condition. That stock was made and meant to be a Field Replacement and so is Mint. The rifle that it came on was sold through The American Legion post in North Kansas City to my grandpa in 1924. I've seen the typical 1898 Italian Walnut stocks, but never an 1896 type made of such wood. Bill Mook handled it whenever he came up to K.C. to sit with us behind our tables and thought that it was pretty interesting. He of course had at his home an entire rack of Late Model 1898 rifles with Italian Walnut stocks.
John Beard
11-24-2015, 07:55
John,
What is the SN of yours ?? Mine is 780693. That makes 3 of them I know of in original condition. I've seen Fred's ( in pics ) and mine. Maybe you can bring yours to B'ham next March for me to see. If Phillip comes, I'll bring mine and we can educate him on what he is looking at.
Nice rifle Fred, thanks for the new pics, they are very good quality. Telephone cameras have come so far that they make my digital SLR Pentax really out dated.
Emri
My rifle is SA S/N 750598 with S.A./11-17 barrel. But our two rifles are different. My rifle is casehardened. Your rifle is double-heat-treated. I bought my rifle many years ago at B'ham. March sounds good. Them ribs is smokin'!
J.B.
John Beard
11-24-2015, 08:00
The scarcity of 1917 M1903 rifles is probably driven by an order issued to SA from the Chief of Ordnance in 1919 to destroy the receivers of all rifles coming back from France that were manufactured in 1917. They didn't miss many.
J.B.
p.s.,
The order did not cover USMC rifles.
Wow, well now it makes sense why they're so very scarce. Thanks John for that bit of Very interesting information!
The scarcity of 1917 M1903 rifles is probably driven by an order issued to SA from the Chief of Ordnance in 1919 to destroy the receivers of all rifles coming back from France that were manufactured in 1917. They didn't miss many.J.B.p.s.,The order did not cover USMC rifles.Then could it be surmised that those very few 1917 made 03's that appear to have survived the order to destroy all returning rifles made in 1917 could have possibly been used by the Marines? That'd be an interesting possibility for Steve Norton and some of the other USMC enthusiasts to think about.
John Beard
11-24-2015, 10:06
Then could it be surmised that those very few 1917 made 03's that appear to have survived the order to destroy all returning rifles made in 1917 could have possibly been used by the Marines? That'd be an interesting possibility for Steve Norton and some of the other USMC enthusiasts to think about.
Such a supposition would not be accurate. The USMC did indeed receive rifles in 1917, and some of them survived. But some Army-issued rifles survived also, relatively speaking.
J.B.
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Rick the Librarian
11-25-2015, 06:06
Normally, I don't recommend taking pictures of firearms in sunlight, but you seem to have a good "system". I'm gueesing early morning or late afternoon?
I think that it was mid day Rick. Of course we live so far North, and it being Winter, the sun is low in the Southern sky. The sun is shining directly from the South in the photos.
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PhillipM
11-25-2015, 09:14
My rifle is SA S/N 750598 with S.A./11-17 barrel. But our two rifles are different. My rifle is casehardened. Your rifle is double-heat-treated. I bought my rifle many years ago at B'ham. March sounds good. Them ribs is smokin'!
J.B.
The ribs sound great! I remember discussing the finish on Emri's rifle and what it signified. Small price to pay for watching Emri's table.
Rick the Librarian
11-25-2015, 09:48
Bet I live farther north than you do!! LOL!
Man, I'm starting to think twice about putting my rifle up for sale now. I didn't realize that there were so few of the 1917 made 03's left. Certainly there aren't many original and still correct specimens out there to find. But I can't have them all. I still want to get that Krag back from my buddy George.
John Beard
11-25-2015, 03:11
I can understand your desire to get your Krag back. I, too, have a very nice Italian Walnut-stocked Krag, but it's an 1898 model.
Many years ago, I had a high number nickel steel SA rifle that I sold at a gun show. Shortly thereafter, I regretted selling it. Fortunately, the buyer lost interest, contacted me the following year, and asked if I was interested in buying it back at the same price. It has lived at my house ever since.
Since I am not a trader, I learned a lesson from that experience. I now don't buy anything unless I am absolutely convinced that I want it. Then I buy it, admire it, smile, :icon_wink: and put it away.
Perhaps you need to stretch a little and see if you can put your arms around both rifles. After all, Christmas is coming and, if you're just trading one rifle for another, you haven't put anything under the tree!!! :eusa_shhh:
Good Luck! :hello:
J.B.
Man, I'm starting to think twice about putting my rifle up for sale now. I didn't realize that there were so few of the 1917 made 03's left. Certainly there aren't many original and still correct specimens out there to find. But I can't have them all. I still want to get that Krag back from my buddy George.
Get your Krag back from your buddy, that sounds like something to do ASAP. I wish I had more firearms that came down through the family.
Leave "your wife's house" for a few days and take a road trip to Birmingham, Alabama next March. John and I like to get together there then; Phillip comes there frequently; we have a good time discussing M1903's and chowing down on some fine BBQ after the gunshow.
If I remember correctly, your rifle is one of the "double heat treated" ones ?? Or is that another rifle you have ?? The DHT ones would have to be more scarce than the case hardened ones, but what John said about the edict to "destroy" receivers made in 1917 would seem to make either one even more scarce.
I don't have a lot of time to make pics, but when I do, I'll make some of mine to compare to your's.
Have a Nice Thanksgiving !!!,
Emri
Now That sounds like something I'd like Emri! In my absence, my wife would be the only one taking care of 49 critters on our ranch though. Maybe 50, I'd have to count again. She's not able to move around very fast with her bad knees and back and hips or respond to emergencies as well as when there're two of us here. Her sternum has never fully healed after one of the horses she was riding came down on her chest with its two front hooves. Her sternum was broken and her ribcage hinged inward, but she still managed to get to her feet and get back onto the horse and ride it home several miles without passing out. This was before cell phones.
My 1917 dated 03 is case hardened like a Krag. My Rock Island Arsenal 03 is the one that you're thinking of. That is one of the approximate 5,000 Rock Island rifles that had survived or that were left over after the Double Heat Treat tests during the development of that process that they finaly adopted in 1918. All of the double heat treated R.I.A. receivers on those rifles were serial numbered Under the official starting point of the Double heat treating process. This is on record. Rarely, one will come across one such rifle with its low serial number that has not been rebuilt or rebarreled. My Rock Island rifle is in superb condition and would be just about impossible to replace with another such rifle if and when I sell it.
Anyway, selling my 1917 made 03 would enrich somebody's collection and its not like the rifle will disappear into a closet or fall into the hands of anyone who'd abuse it. If I do put it up for auction, I'll include the Excellent conditioned 1917 dated sling and the 1918 dated 1905 bayonet and scabbard. It'd make a nice addition in someone's collection.
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Thanks for sharing!
I have a rifle within three thousand of yours that is convincingly a Doughboy bring-back. It came with the original sling, bayonet, scabbard, and breech cover. And it's in about the same condition. Seeing yours makes me appreciate both of ours!
Thanks again for taking the time to make and post pictures!
J.B.
p.s.,
And to dirtdigger, the date was April, 1917.
John,
Looking at the condition of my 1917 dated rifle, I'm wondering if it too is quite possibly a Doughboy bring back. None of the features on it show much wear other than careful handling and the parts are all original and nothing has been updated or re inspected or replaced other than the bolt, which was an unaltered, unrefinished and complete Rod Bayonet bolt made by Rock Island Arsenal. I replaced it with a correct C7 stamped bolt.
It being a Doughboy bring back could explain why the rifle was saved from being scrapped upon its return from the European theater, as per the Order issued to Springfield Armory by the Chief of Ordnance.
"The scarcity of 1917 M1903 rifles is probably driven by an order issued to SA from the Chief of Ordnance in 1919 to destroy the receivers of all rifles coming back from France that were manufactured in 1917. They didn't miss many.
J.B.
p.s.,
The order did not cover USMC rifles."
John Beard
Have you any thoughts about that theory John?
John Beard
01-16-2016, 04:29
"The scarcity of 1917 M1903 rifles is probably driven by an order issued to SA from the Chief of Ordnance in 1919 to destroy the receivers of all rifles coming back from France that were manufactured in 1917. They didn't miss many.
J.B.
p.s.,
The order did not cover USMC rifles."
John Beard
Have you any thoughts about that theory John?
At the time I first gained an interest in M1903 rifles many years ago, I did not notice any shortage of rifles from 1917. But in more recent years, I have noticed that rifles in the S/N 700,000 range appear to be less common than normal. I'm not suggesting that rifles in the S/N 700,000 range are scarce or rare, but I just encounter them less frequently than rifles in other serial ranges, especially in high number ranges.
A sizable chunk of rifles in the S/N 600,000 range were issued to the USMC. And although many later rifles in that serial range were made in 1917, those rifles survived because the USMC did not scrap their low number rifles.
J.B.
John Beard
01-16-2016, 10:38
Here are some hard numbers for you.
I have access to a data base of serial numbers and barrel dates collected purely at random. In the data base are:
151 rifles in the S/N 700,000 range.
424 rifles in the S/N 800,000 range.
397 rifles in the S/N 900,000 range.
These numbers prove that a significant percentage of the rifles in the S/N 700,000 range fell off the edge of the world.
J.B.
Thanks for sharing that Very interesting information John! Before I'd learned from you about the order from the Chief of Ordnance for Springfield Armory to destroy all returning 1917 made receivers, I suspected that the 700,000 range rifles had just had more time in the field and the attrition rate was highest for them.
My original question still stands though John. Does the condition of my rifle indicate to you that it could possibly be a Doughboy bring back? It does to me. I can't think of another more probable reason the rifle had remained unchanged and in such sharp condition. Maybe there are others that I can't think of though. Any ideas?
John Beard
01-17-2016, 12:25
Thanks for that Very interesting information John! Before I'd learned from you about the order from the Chief of Ordnance for Springfield Armory to destroy all returning 1917 made receivers, I suspected that the 700,000 range rifles had just had more time in the field and the attrition rate was highest for them.
My original question still stands though John. Does the condition of my rifle indicate to you that it could possibly be a Doughboy bring back? It does to me. I can't think of another more probable reason the rifle had remained unchanged and in such sharp condition. Maybe there are others that I can't think of though. Any ideas?
Fred,
Your rifle could certainly and easily pass as a Doughboy bring-back. The original sling and fine condition gives credibility to that explanation. The incorrect bolt and rear sight slide binding screw that you had to replace, however, reduces that explanation's credibility a little. In addition, one must ask, "Where's the rest of it?"
In the case of my rifle, it came with the sling, bayonet, bayonet scabbard, breech cover, and cleaning kit in the butt. And there was no question whatsoever that it had been together as a set for a long, long time. No question whatsoever! The Doughboy who brought it back left nothing behind. He came back with everything he was issued. And everything is 100% original with no replacement parts.
I had a very, very dear friend and mentor who was a WWI veteran. He was issued an M1917 rifle. He told me that he could easily have brought the rifle back and the Army would have never missed it. When he mustered out, he was told to go turn in his rifle at the armory. When he arrived in the armory, he was told to throw his rifle in the huge pile in the floor. Nobody checked the serial number. Nobody checked it in. Nobody cared. Nothing. Had he known that, he said he could have just skipped the armory and brought it home. And in the case of my rifle, apparently somebody did!
Hope this helps.
J.B.
Yep, I can't figure where the unrefinished RB bolt could've come from. Those aren't easy to find now. No telling how long it could've been on that rifle.
I had thought that the earlier type elevation slide binding knob might've been, like the split sling swivel, just an early part that could still be found in the parts inventory.
I have such an early knob that I initially got to replace the worn one like it that came on the rifle. I chose the later type instead though. Maybe I should install the earlier type though so the rifle maintains its original type features. That early bolt is certainly not going back on it though.
I wonder if some owner had put it on the rifle because it was polished and they thought it looked better than the original...
John Beard
01-17-2016, 08:13
Yep, I can't figure where the unrefinished RB bolt could've come from. Those aren't easy to find now. No telling how long it could've been on that rifle.
I had thought that the earlier type elevation slide binding knob might've been, like the split sling swivel, just an early part that could still be found in the parts inventory.
I have such an early knob that I initially got to replace the worn one like it that came on the rifle. I chose the later type instead though. Maybe I should install the earlier type though so the rifle maintains its original type features. That early bolt is certainly not going back on it though.
I wonder if some owner had put it on the rifle because it was polished and they thought it looked better than the original...
The rear sight slide binding screw and split-shank sling swivel currently on your rifle are correct. I would leave it just like it is.
J.B.
Fred,
Your rifle could certainly and easily pass as a Doughboy bring-back. The original sling and fine condition gives credibility to that explanation. The incorrect bolt and rear sight slide binding screw that you had to replace, however, reduces that explanation's credibility a little. In addition, one must ask, "Where's the rest of it?"
.B.
Where's the rest of it indeed! Fat chance the bolt came off of an unconverted Rod Bayonet 1903 though I guess.
However, even though my Rod Bayonet 03 is an assembly of original no longer available RB parts, isn't it Amazing that the bolt that was on it when I got the rifle was C7 stamped and therefore correct for my late 1917 03... which in turn had the unaltered Rod Bayonet bolt in it. Maybe Saint Brophy shuffled the deck in my favor that time, eh?
It seems that I once again just Forest Gump'd my way through that situation.
John Beard
01-18-2016, 03:14
Where's the rest of it indeed! Fat chance the bolt came off of an unconverted Rod Bayonet 1903 though I guess.
However, even though my Rod Bayonet 03 is an assembly of original no longer available RB parts, isn't it Amazing that the bolt that was on it when I got the rifle was C7 stamped and therefore correct for my late 1917 03... which in turn had the unaltered Rod Bayonet bolt in it. Maybe Saint Brophy shuffled the deck in my favor that time, eh?
It seems that I once again just Forest Gump'd my way through that situation.
You were fortunate indeed!
I had a similar situation with stocks on two rifles that I bought many years ago. I bought a 1917 rifle with a 1906 alteration stock on it, and an altered rod bayonet rifle with a 1917 stock on it. The two stocks are now back where they belong.
Working with VFW/American Legion rifles at the CMP, I see mixed up bolts all the time. The posts frequently mixed the bolts when cleaning the rifles. I try to sort them back out as best I can.
J.B.
The 1903 Springfield, sling, oiler, bayonet and scabbard on this thread will be put up on the Want To Sell forum on this site very soon. Just a heads up for anyone who might find it of some interest.
http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35508&stc=1
http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35507&stc=1
The shiny bore is difficult to get a focus on, but I think this photo shows how Minty the rifling is...
I'm tellin ya, I think that someone took this rifle home at the end of the Great War and hid it away. That's probably the only reason that it exists today in the unaltered condition that it's in.
http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35516&stc=1
Alright, I'm Hopefully going to put this 1917 barreled S.A. 03 on the For Sale Forum here tonight. Sorry for the delay. Look for its Posting tonight.
Within the thread where I'm going to list the rifle for sale, I'm going to post a link to this thread as a reference to the photos of everything and to the information on it that people have shared.
I'll be including with this rifle a 1918 dated 1905 bayonet with a 1910 scabbard, an early nickel plated oiler and brush and pull cord, an excellent conditioned 1907 leather sling with the date of 1917 stamped on it and a U.S. Model 1916 field cleaning rod of the type that has Four Sections to it within its canvas pouch.
Here are the photo's of it...
http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35518&stc=1
http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35520&stc=1
http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35521&stc=1
http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35522&stc=1
http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35523&stc=1
http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35524&stc=1
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