Winchester 70 Van Orden

[keith smart]

Can anyone tell me if this is a documented Van Orden build?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=527993872

Thanks,
Keith

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Since the seller implies this rifle had something to do with the USMC sniper program (USMC Unertl mounted), I will address it as pertains to the USMC programs. Van Orden called ALL of his Model 70 rifles "sniper rifles", although I have no knowledge of any Van Orden "sniper rifle" being used in combat - ever. I realize the seller does not specifically make the claim that this rifle is a USMC sniper rifle.

Let me preface my response with the caveat that I know very little about the Van Orden rifles. Having said that, the serial number of this rifle is outside the range of the set of 373 Model 70 rifles originally purchased by the Corps and delivered on May 29, 1942. The later Model 70 rifles acquired by the Corps, some purchased from Van Orden, were purchased by the rifle teams and fitted with heavier target barrels (many were Douglas barrels), not present on this rifle. The original set of Model 70 rifles used in RVN were SOS rifles (hunting rifles) not procured from Van Orden. The second set of Model 70 rifles used in RVN were rifle team rifles with their heavier than Sporter barrel rifles. This rifle seems to NOT meet the known characteristics of any of the known sets of Van Orden rifles sold to the Corps in my opinion (don't forget the caveat). I also notice the seller does not show the scope bona fides or USMC serial number. As far as I know, the Corps never sold any of the RVN Model 70 sniper rifles (many years later they still had Hathcock's rifle in stock), all of which suffered from corrosion due to the godawful RVN climate, which is also not exhibited by this rifle. I would definitely want to see the documentation the seller mentions before I bid on the rifle.

Just my opinion. Maybe someone with way more expertise as to Van Orden "sniper rifles" will weigh in and show me that I am in error.

I just realized I did not actually answer your question.

jt

[keith smart]

Thanks for the insight, jt. The seller is pretty vague on it and as it stands the value is probably the sum of the parts. I know there are serial number lists on VOs but I can't locate it on the net. Interestingly, I was at an auction bidding on a S&W Aircrewman. The holster was marked Evaluators Inc. Quantico, Va. Must have been quite an interprise. Why he adhered to a fragile target scope for a sniper application is a mystery to me.
Hopefully, this thread will generate some more history.
Thanks,
Keith

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

There are guys on this forum who have the VO list of SN's. Maybe one will chime in and give us the straight scoop. The price on this rifle is outrageous anyway, even if it is what he says it is, which I doubt at this point in time. Why would this rifle have a USMC Unertl scope on it? From my meager memory, which may be in error, none of the Model 70's used in RVN came from VO. We'll see when a real expert wades in.

jt

[cplnorton]

I'm not a expert, but it is a documented Van Orden.

170966 Sold 5/53 to A.E. Bell Hummelstown PA

[cplnorton]

Jim,

I know your friend has the serials of the model 70 snipers in Nam.

Are there rifles on that list that the serial number is above the 50,000 range? I've often wondered about the US Property marked Model 70's from the mid 50's that were sold by CMP Auction. I have one that I think is in 398,xxx range.

[keith smart]

I'm not a expert, but it is a documented Van Orden.

170966 Sold 5/53 to A.E. Bell Hummelstown PA

Thanks! Just what I needed. Price is nuts.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I'm not a expert, but it is a documented Van Orden.

170966 Sold 5/53 to A.E. Bell Hummelstown PA


How did you know that? (Curious) Was it sold with that Unertl on it, or is there sufficient data to tell?

jt

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Why is a rifle sold by Van Orden worth so much money? They aren't particularly rare, and they weren't used as sniper rifles. I don't get it.

jt

[keith smart]

Why is a rifle sold by Van Orden worth so much money? They aren't particularly rare, and they weren't used as sniper rifles. I don't get it.

jt

I don't think it is worth but half of the starting price. I would by it at the sum of the parts. Disregarding a link to Evaluators, seems a high condition pre 64 Model 70 should run 2500. The WWII scope 3500 (and up) so $6000 would be about it.

Thanks for all the input.
Keith

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Assuming the scope is what he claims, as from the pics he posted, I don't see the USMC stamping, which most people would show.

jt

[swampyankee]

I have been to his shop. It's a grundgy little hole and everything and I mean everything is way overpriced in it. He does get some nice stuff but always wants an arm and leg for it. I can't figure how he's still in business, all I can think is there are a lot of Conn. millionaires and are free with there money. Must be nice.

[cplnorton]

I cheated Jim. Many of the records of the rifles Van Orden sold are in Chandlers Death from afar volume 1.

He does list maybe like 7 or 8 that were shipped to the Marines. All the rest went to the Army, Coast Guard, or civilians.

[cplnorton]

Oh and if it was sold with that Unertl. At least from the books I've read on these Van Orden rifles, the lyman Supertargetspot was the go to scope on them.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Oh and if it was sold with that Unertl. At least from the books I've read on these Van Orden rifles, the lyman Supertargetspot was the go to scope on them.

How did VO get his hands on a USMC Unertl scope? At the time this rifle was sold, the Corps had not surplussed the Unertls.

jt

[cplnorton]

How did VO get his hands on a USMC Unertl scope? At the time this rifle was sold, the Corps had not surplussed the Unertls.

jt

I think someone added it later on. All the info I've seen on the VO rifles and the advertisements I've seen from back in the day, detail the lyman scope. I will look, I think in one of the books it has an ad from Van Orden and it describes the Supertargetspot.

But yeah I think someone added the Unertl much later on to make it look like a USMC sniper.

[cplnorton]

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/post-214-1338564347_zpshadwyrcf.jpg

[jgaynor]

At the beginning of WW2 then Capt Van Orden promoted the use of the 8x Unertl on a winchester Model 70 for the standard USMC snipers rifle. The brass balked at adopting a new, non standard rifle so the Unertl scope was used on M1903A1 National Match and Special Target rifles that were in inventory.

Van Orden went off to lead an amphibious unit in the Pacific where he was awarded the Navy Cross.

It has never been clear to me why he continued to flog the idea of a target scope on a snipers rifle after WW2.

[keith smart]

Thanks, Jim. His affinity for the Unertl remains a mystery but his background lends to his ability to access the scope

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Thanks, Jim. His affinity for the Unertl remains a mystery but his background lends to his ability to access the scope


He had access to government property scopes to use on his commercial operation rifles? I seriously doubt that. His own circular stipulates he used Lyman Super TargetSpot Scopes on his commercial rifles.

jt

[Herschel]

For what it is worth, there was an Amon E. Bell that fired in the High Power Rifle National Matches at Camp Perry in 1958.
He is listed as a civilian and won a Silver Medal in the Leg Match.

[Big Larry]

I am a little late with this info. A USMC Unertl just went for $7,700 with the Micarta can. As for Evaluators rifles, I have # 272958, sold to the US Army rifle team at Camp Perry, 9-03-1954. Completely documented by known Sniper book author Peter Senich. I think he has all the Van Orden numbers. Sadly, the US Property markings were ground off the receiver, but I was given the rifle as a gift. It came with a Lyman STS and I don't remember which power. The scope was trashed, so I sold it for parts. Big Larry

http://www.fototime.com/FE2B06184BD4806/standard.jpg

[cplnorton]

Big Larry Good to see you come back to Jouster! :)

[Big Larry]

Thanks to all who remember me. Big Larry