Possible USMC? Oh, What To Do?

[Punch the Clown]

I have my heart set on a 1941 USMC replica. Anyway, I have the Unertl and have been looking for a donor rifle. I wanted one that was already drilled but then this one came my way. The rifle was literally filled with cosmolene-the GI stuff-not the CMP stuff. It has an 8-42 Springfield barrel with a mint bore. When I de-cosmo'd it I found the serial number on the bolt. The rifle is a mixmaster. The sloppy Hatcher hole is there as is that ugly gray park. I'm starting to think that I shouldn't drill and tap this one. If I knew for certain It was a Marine Corps rifle I probably won't. Any ideas? How about the stock markings?

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/Stumedic/Possible%20USMC/IMG_0208_zps31eqtwnb.jpg (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/Stumedic/media/Possible%20USMC/IMG_0208_zps31eqtwnb.jpg.html)

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/Stumedic/Possible%20USMC/IMG_0216_zpsr9dw87yl.jpg (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/Stumedic/media/Possible%20USMC/IMG_0216_zpsr9dw87yl.jpg.html)

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/Stumedic/Possible%20USMC/IMG_0221_zpsorlqags6.jpg (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/Stumedic/media/Possible%20USMC/IMG_0221_zpsorlqags6.jpg.html)

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/Stumedic/Possible%20USMC/IMG_0222_zpscofbq60r.jpg (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/Stumedic/media/Possible%20USMC/IMG_0222_zpscofbq60r.jpg.html)

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/Stumedic/Possible%20USMC/IMG_0223_zpslsky44ti.jpg (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/Stumedic/media/Possible%20USMC/IMG_0223_zpslsky44ti.jpg.html)

[Smokeeaterpilot]

The stock is a USMC specific contract stock, which I've commonly heard called a "J" stock. Not sure if that's appropriate nomenclature but it's a common nickname.

[Punch the Clown]

The stock is a USMC specific contract stock, which I've commonly heard called a "J" stock. Not sure if that's appropriate nomenclature but it's a common nickname.

So is this thing looking like a USMC?

[Roadkingtrax]

What you have shown, yes it is. If you're doing a clone, you may want to see if higher serial numbers were used on the snipers.

[Smokeeaterpilot]

So is this thing looking like a USMC?

It does possess some of the "USMC traits" you hear a lot of chatter about. Does it have the "vice marks" you hear about?

[cplnorton]

Yeah don't drill this one. Even though they say they can be built on about any serial dating even back to WW1, almost all I have seen are in the 1.4 and 1.5 serial range. With the 1.49 and 1.52 being the heaviest.

[louis]

I totally agree with Steve. Hang in, keep looking at the sporterized 03's. I look on gunbroker often and there are a few high number drilled already. You have s really good rifle on your hands I'd keep it as is.

[chuckindenver]

couple things.
does it have a funny T on the bottom of the barrel, just behind the front sight?
is there a punch mark on the right receiver bolt rail?
and what does the stock look like under the bolt handle?

[Punch the Clown]

It does possess some of the "USMC traits" you hear a lot of chatter about. Does it have the "vice marks" you hear about?

No vise marks. No stippling on buttplate. I will say that as far as I can tell it was in it's cosmolene cocoon a loooong time. What it has is the park color, the Hatcher hole, the electro-penciled bolt, the stock (thank you smokeeaterpilot) and a '42 barrel.

[Punch the Clown]

couple things.
does it have a funny T on the bottom of the barrel, just behind the front sight?
is there a punch mark on the right receiver bolt rail?
and what does the stock look like under the bolt handle?
No T, no punch, nothing unusual under the bolt handle.

[Randy A]

Is it a scant or a C stock?

[Punch the Clown]

Is it a scant or a C stock?

Regular "S" stock.

[Mike D]

Regular "S" stock.

Without finger grooves, correct?

Mike

[Smokeeaterpilot]

To my knowledge the stock in question was only produced straight without GG.

[PhillipM]

.... The rifle was literally filled with cosmolene-the GI stuff-not the CMP stuff. ...

Just a minor point, the CMP stuff you allude to on the 1903's returned from Greece although often referred to as cosmoline, was just plain axle/bearing grease.

If you drill that rifle I will hunt you down and bludgeon you with my hardbound copy of Hatcher's Notebook.

[Punch the Clown]

Without finger grooves, correct?

Mike

No grooves

[Roadkingtrax]

Punch, is this the rifle I helped you find your matching bolt for? (I could be suffering from CRS though. :) )

[Punch the Clown]

Just a minor point, the CMP stuff you allude to on the 1903's returned from Greece although often referred to as cosmoline, was just plain axle/bearing grease.

If you drill that rifle I will hunt you down and bludgeon you with my hardbound copy of Hatcher's Notebook.

I was just looking it over and it is getting a stock cleaning with linseed oil, a lube job and a trip to the range. No drilling will be done.

[Punch the Clown]

Punch, is this the rifle I helped you find your matching bolt for? (I could be suffering from CRS though. :) )

No Tim. This is a rifle I picked up over the weekend. When I got it home and found the numbered bolt under the Cosmo I was one happy camper.

[John Beard]

To my knowledge the stock in question was only produced straight without GG.

Seasons' Greetings!

Your knowledge is incomplete! :icon_study:

Merry Christmas! :hello:

J.B.

[Smokeeaterpilot]

Seasons' Greetings!

Your knowledge is incomplete! :icon_study:

Merry Christmas! :hello:

J.B.

This is why I avoid chiming in, because that seems to be a common occurrence. If you don't make mistakes you don't learn!

Many thanks for the correction John! And always Merry Christmas! :)

[rebound]

This is why I avoid chiming in, because that seems to be a common occurrence. If you don't make mistakes you don't learn!

Many thanks for the correction John! And always Merry Christmas! :)

Another way to say it....
Show me a person who doesn't make a mistake, and I'll show you somebody that doesn't do anything...

[wayne]

Another way to say it....
Show me a person who doesn't make a mistake, and I'll show you somebody that doesn't do anything...

+1

[Punch the Clown]

I added some more pics. I cleaned it, oiled it , and left it alone. No drilling this one. I realize it doesn't have the pipe table marks on the barrel but it still looks so much like my other probably USMC. Boy does flash bring out the rust. If you look at the rifle in person the rust stains are not as pronounced. I left everything as is. Just a clean-up. Is there any significance that the barrel is an SA 8-42? I know it has been said that certain month barrels were more prevalent. Also, SN 925470 seems to be a USMC -http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=56478. Thanks guys.
http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/Stumedic/Possible%20USMC/DSCF2613_zpsy6x3bx2z.jpg (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/Stumedic/media/Possible%20USMC/DSCF2613_zpsy6x3bx2z.jpg.html)

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/Stumedic/Possible%20USMC/DSCF2612_zpslra7nqp3.jpg (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/Stumedic/media/Possible%20USMC/DSCF2612_zpslra7nqp3.jpg.html)

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/Stumedic/Possible%20USMC/DSCF2611_zpstaktt8eq.jpg (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/Stumedic/media/Possible%20USMC/DSCF2611_zpstaktt8eq.jpg.html)

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/Stumedic/Possible%20USMC/DSCF2609_zpslhxxhlee.jpg (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/Stumedic/media/Possible%20USMC/DSCF2609_zpslhxxhlee.jpg.html)

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/Stumedic/Possible%20USMC/DSCF2608_zpsp4a6uoss.jpg (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/Stumedic/media/Possible%20USMC/DSCF2608_zpsp4a6uoss.jpg.html)

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/Stumedic/Possible%20USMC/DSCF2607_zpsmfevkx7b.jpg (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/Stumedic/media/Possible%20USMC/DSCF2607_zpsmfevkx7b.jpg.html)

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/Stumedic/Possible%20USMC/DSCF2605_zpscjngkfnh.jpg (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/Stumedic/media/Possible%20USMC/DSCF2605_zpscjngkfnh.jpg.html)

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/Stumedic/Possible%20USMC/DSCF2589_zpsrsopysny.jpg (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/Stumedic/media/Possible%20USMC/DSCF2589_zpsrsopysny.jpg.html)

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/Stumedic/Possible%20USMC/DSCF2602_zps11zhwszk.jpg (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/Stumedic/media/Possible%20USMC/DSCF2602_zps11zhwszk.jpg.html)

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/Stumedic/Possible%20USMC/DSCF2599_zpsnbvasktx.jpg (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/Stumedic/media/Possible%20USMC/DSCF2599_zpsnbvasktx.jpg.html)

[louis]

Punch just saw this on gunbroker this morning. Would make a great candidate for what you want to do. Stock hasn't been cut. But you'll need scope mounts and a scope and a bolt. And a rear sight collar.bthats a really nice rifle you've got.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=530165470

[Punch the Clown]

Punch just saw this on gunbroker this morning. Would make a great candidate for what you want to do. Stock hasn't been cut. But you'll need scope mounts and a scope and a bolt. And a rear sight collar.bthats a really nice rifle you've got.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=530165470

Thanks Louis. That's getting closer to what I need. The holes are no problem, especially the front ones as Steve Earle will drill the sight block to match the hole spacing. The rest I would have heli-arced closed. The thing that is killing me is his use of the dremel on the rear sight base!! Still, this one is food for thought. Thanks for looking out for me.

[louis]

Yes and no hatcher hole. But there will be more I've seen a few and I picked up one a few months back and did the conversion. The holes do match match I had the same mounts as they show on the ad. No need for special drilled holes.

[Jim in Salt Lake]

The base rifle for mine was drilled and tapped for a side mounted scope and I've seen quite a few other sporterized 03s with side mounts. If you can find one of these, you get the benefit of no holes on top of the receiver. Mine still had all the original metal and stock but the stock was cut off at the butt for a recoil pad. Had to get a new stock but that's it, other than scope mounts. I think I paid $300 for it. I'm not saying side mounts are easy to find but they're out there. The fun is in the hunt.

[Punch the Clown]

Old thread with small update. I took this rifle apart for an annual cleaning and looking really close at the barrel this is what I found. Same marks on the other side. Talk about faint. I missed them the first go round. Oiled up they are barely visible.

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/Stumedic/IMG_0539_zpstp3ddvap.jpg (http://s369.photobucket.com/user/Stumedic/media/IMG_0539_zpstp3ddvap.jpg.html)

[Kaliman]

I have a Marine 03 about 400 off the serial number of your bolt.

[ElWoodman]

Eye spy the plumber's table vise marks, though they seem very faint for "Marine Torque".........Curious about a Hatcher hole on a high number receiver.....Wonder where that A3 sling swivel came from, as by A3 time the Corps had M1s....I'm a cynical bastard, Uncle Sam made me that way...

[cplnorton]

You do see variying degrees of how much the vise marks dig into the barrel. So that wouldn't really bug me as I've seen many that are identical to that.

The Marines actually had problems with both the high and low number receivers, it wasn't just the low numbers. So the Marines actually considered the Hatcher Hole as a safety for the shooter. So when you see them first start to mention the Hatcher hole in the summer of 1938. They mention they will do the Hatcher Hole on all receivers that pass through rebuild. It's sort of a long series of docs, but I don't remember seeing any distinction in the docs for the Hatcher Hole that mention it was only for low numbers. I just remember them saying it would be done on all receivers that pass through rebuild. Which is also what you see on the existing Marine rifles of today. It's rare to find a Marine rifle with a WWII era barrel that doesn't have the Hatcher Hole as well.

On the Remington parts, the Marines actually did have correspondance with Remington with the possibliy of getting replacement parts directly from them. In fact the first mention that I see is of this is around 1938. The Marines were asking SA for replacement parts for the M1903's, and SA said they had pretty much switched to the M1, and to contact Remington as they had purchased much of RIA's old machinery. But it is important to note that I have not see an actual direct order yet from Remington to the Marines, or if I have, I have forgetten it. But some of those documents are missing at the archives and it would not suprise me if the files were complete, there might be orders in there from Remington directly.

In nothing else, almost all parts orders for the 1903's were shipped by the Army to the Marines. And I have seen mentions in the Army docs of getting replacement parts from Remington . It would have only taken a simple line item order for parts by the Marines to the Army, and the Army depot filling the order would have shipped what they had.

And it could have also been swapped at anytime in the past 70 years as well. But you do see a lot of random R parts in Marine 1903's. It's just hard to prove when or where it was installed.

[Punch the Clown]

Guys, looking at this rifle I think it's been together for quite sometime as all of the "patina" is matching. A member of the forum here saw it at the gun show where I bought it. It was covered in old cosmo/grease and dirt but he looked at it from 10 feet away and said to me "Good Eye". Between that and the feedback from other Culver members I am pretty sure of this rifles USMC lineage.

[cram1903]

Hello Chuck,
Please explain the significance of the "T" mark that you mentioned. I was always under the impression that it was an indicator of a Greek rebuild however I recently obtained a rifle that is clearly not a Greek return and in fact has all the traits of a marine rebuild.

Cliff

[Punch the Clown]

I have a Marine 03 about 400 off the serial number of your bolt.

Is your rifle listed in the SRS? Any pictures?

[Kaliman]

Not in the SRS

http://imgur.com/a/Oq46b

[Punch the Clown]

nice

[cplnorton]

You know I haven't really seen too many serial hits. We have over 4,000 1903 Marine serials and are adding new serials not in the SRS every month. But I've still only seen maybe four or five direct hits since I've been tracking them.

[Punch the Clown]

You know I haven't really seen too many serial hits. We have over 4,000 1903 Marine serials and are adding new serials not in the SRS every month. But I've still only seen maybe four or five direct hits since I've been tracking them.

Cplnorton, do you have your own database? If so where do you find your entries?

[cplnorton]

Yeah a couple people have been working on building it. But there is a new Archives we found that we are pulling out a lot of especially WWI or before USMC serials.

The ones in the SRS, are almost all from the Quartermaster files at CP which are mostly the 20's and 30's.

But what is sort of neat if you have the docs Frank pulled the serials from for the SRS. They usually have the Marines name on the document. So at this time, a rifle was issued to a Marine in boot and he carried it till it became unserviceable or he mustered out. If gives you a good idea where the rifle was at that specific time. It's sort of interesting honestly.

[Punch the Clown]

Yeah a couple people have been working on building it. But there is a new Archives we found that we are pulling out a lot of especially WWI or before USMC serials.

The ones in the SRS, are almost all from the Quartermaster files at CP which are mostly the 20's and 30's.

But what is sort of neat if you have the docs Frank pulled the serials from for the SRS. They usually have the Marines name on the document. So at this time, a rifle was issued to a Marine in boot and he carried it till it became unserviceable or he mustered out. If gives you a good idea where the rifle was at that specific time. It's sort of interesting honestly.

Book down the road?

[Kaliman]

We're trying to get Steve to write one...