SRS list M1903 Star Gauged, Scoped and Winchester connection M1903

[Promo]

I made my own lists, based on the SRS files. Without the valueable work of Franklin Mallroy this thread would not have been possible, and everyone interested in the M1903 should appreciate what he did for us collectors.

What I did was reading and extracting scoped rifles of the SRS files - I found 331 listings. Three of them are not listed as SGS ("Star Gauged, Scoped") - but one is obviously equipped with the W&S M1908 telescope, while the other two are listed to have a "Warner Sight" - which I was assuming is referring to the W&S telescope. Correct me if I'm wrong. If I missed any listings of sniper rifles, please let me know so that I can update the list.

An additional list I made contains the SRS listings of M1903 rifles with a Winchester connection. Some of those are indeed listed to have been converted to snipers, while the majority being inspected on the same day (note also the first listings with the low serial Rock Island manufactured rifles also have the same date and entry!). I've heard that these guns in fact might have been original sniper rifles, which would be supported by the recent scoped rifle in this serial range shown in a recent US Militaria Forum Post (http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/246898-ww1-marine-corps-grouping/).

Especially the second list was put up for discussion and to hopefully find out more on these guns. Any help with a previous record of any listed serial would be highly appreciated!

The intention of these lists and the thread is not only to offer a research for owners of M1903 (sniper) rifles, but also to hopefully be able to find any of these rifles and to learn more about them. If you have a gun which is listed here, or own a rifle in these serial ranges, please let me know!


ATB

Georg

PS: If you own a sniper which is not listed, do not worry! Not every gun was recorded, but often can be found in specific serial ranges. As you might have noticed the early W&S M1908 scoped rifles are to be found in the 352.XXX to 353.XXX serial range - and I recorded quite a few scopes for rifles in this range which are not SRS listed. So please also let me know if you own a sniper rifle which is not listed!

[cplnorton]

Man this is absolutely awesome/ I love when we can all share our research so we can all better understand a specific topic. Great work Georg. Thank you so much sir!

[louis]

Excellent work!! Thank you for sharing!!

[Dick Hosmer]

I made my own lists, based on the SRS files. Without the valueable work of Franklin Mallroy this thread would not have been possible, and everyone interested in the M1903 should appreciate what he did for us collectors.

What I did was reading and extracting scoped rifles of the SRS files - I found 331 listings. Three of them are not listed as SGS ("Star Gauged, Scoped") - but one is obviously equipped with the W&S M1908 telescope, while the other two are listed to have a "Warner Sight" - which I was assuming is referring to the W&S telescope. Correct me if I'm wrong. If I missed any listings of sniper rifles, please let me know so that I can update the list.

An additional list I made contains the SRS listings of M1903 rifles with a Winchester connection. Some of those are indeed listed to have been converted to snipers, while the majority being inspected on the same day (note also the first listings with the low serial Rock Island manufactured rifles also have the same date and entry!). I've heard that these guns in fact might have been original sniper rifles, which would be supported by the recent scoped rifle in this serial range shown in a recent US Militaria Forum Post (http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/246898-ww1-marine-corps-grouping/).

Especially the second list was put up for discussion and to hopefully find out more on these guns. Any help with a previous record of any listed serial would be highly appreciated!

The intention of these lists and the thread is not only to offer a research for owners of M1903 (sniper) rifles, but also to hopefully be able to find any of these rifles and to learn more about them. If you have a gun which is listed here, or own a rifle in these serial ranges, please let me know!


ATB

Georg

PS: If you own a sniper which is not listed, do not worry! Not every gun was recorded, but often can be found in specific serial ranges. As you might have noticed the early W&S M1908 scoped rifles are to be found in the 352.XXX to 353.XXX serial range - and I recorded quite a few scopes for rifles in this range which are not SRS listed. So please also let me know if you own a sniper rifle which is not listed!


Without meaning to be a wet blanket here (I counted Frank Mallory as a personal friend, and have lauded his efforts for many years) I believe that is precisely the type of info which is protected by the copyright, and could get one into trouble with the present operator of SRS, who is nowhere near as sharing, open, and friendly as Frank was. I'd be VERY interested in knowing (a) if you contacted Mr. Gagner, and (b) what his reaction was?

In the past, he has been unwilling to "share" even the basic raw serials, let alone permit a near exact copy of their format.

[Promo]

I have thought about this. What I did is not to copy his information, but to extract parts of it and bring it in a new format - and I gave a reference for this. On the other hand, if someone here asks for a SRS lookup, most quote entries from the SRS if it's a hit, and sometimes also a few entries next to the serial number in question. Where is the difference now?

I of course understand that the books are copyright protected, but I didn't post a copy of it. Here in Europe we'd call that a work which is based on literature, but generates new information because it presents it in a new context which has not been done before, but also names the sources. Besides that, to own SRS, does that also give you property for knowing the fact that a particular serial number was used in a special place? I mean anyone else could also have looked it up afterwards.

Probably someone more knowledgeable on the US laws can share his opinion? I definately do not want to harm copyrights, but posted this under the view of generating something new (and trust me, looking everything up and write it down was hell of a work!) - so in case you're right I will remove the PDF documents.

[Dick Hosmer]

It is an interesting issue, and, I basically am on your side. I am all in favor of sharing info between collectors.

I take the bedrock position that one cannot copyright a list of raw numbers from 1 to say 575,000 (which covers all of the 'trapdoors' - my primary interest). I also doubt that one may copyright the reference material found in the National Archives, or elsewhere. What apparently IS protected is the assembling and publishing (at an author's expense) of such material, in a particular format. Gleaning the info from the record boxes and government files (even though they themselves may be "public") involved a huge amount of time and expense - far more than sitting at a comfortable desk and doing some retyping.

Read the prefaces in the various volumes - your lists are near-identical copies of the SRS format, and as such, could be a problem.

I did not realize you were not in the US, and, you are not charging for the information, so it may go unchallenged. People share individual weapon data from SRS on a daily basis, but your lists are the most blatant, and by far the largest, "extractions" that i have ever seen. Hopefully it will turn out to be nothing.

[louis]

Is mr gagner still in business? I sent him snail mail and a check as he requested a few years ago and received only one of his newsletters or whatever you want to call it. He does not pay attention to his business and could care less as far as I'm concerned. I'm really surprised he's still around. I.e. Lazy

[louis]

As far as copyrights on public domain information i.e. Serial numbers and other info taken from national archives I do not believe that is s copyright infringement. The information that was written from the author as far as sentences is and possibly organization of information.

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/public-domain/welcome/

[Herschel]

Mr. Gagner is still in business. I received the current copy of the U. S. Martial Arms collector magazine this week. I have no bad experiences with SRS. I am a subscriber and have bought copies of the sales record card from SRS for several rifles. I don't know why someone would not contact SRS and explain that they didn't get what they payed for but instead badmouth Gagner on this forum.

[louis]

Hershel yes I did contact him and got no response. Don't assume I didn't try. Like I said it was a few years ago. When you're in business and don't take care of things be prepared for not as you say bad mouthing but negative responses.

[Herschel]

Louis, I apologize for making an incorrect assumption about your not making an effort to work things out direct with Mr. Gagner. My personal dealing with him has been quite different than yours.

[louis]

Herschel, no problem. I had a not so good experience but I know others on both sides. I originally joined because of the fact that I have a 03 that is a national match and he did send me the sales info after an extremely long wait. And then the subscription debacle. Well water under the bridge.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

.... I found 331 listings. Three of them are not listed as SGS ("Star Gauged, Scoped") - but one is obviously equipped with the W&S M1908 telescope, while the other two are listed to have a "Warner Sight" - which I was assuming is referring to the W&S telescope....

Promo, FYI, I have over 700 listings in my own list of scoped 1903's. Quite a job on your part - congratulations.


An additional list I made contains the SRS listings of M1903 rifles with a Winchester connection. Some of those are indeed listed to have been converted to snipers, while the majority being inspected on the same day (note also the first listings with the low serial Rock Island manufactured rifles also have the same date and entry!). I've heard that these guns in fact might have been original sniper rifles, which would be supported by the recent scoped rifle in this serial range shown in a recent US Militaria Forum Post (http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/246898-ww1-marine-corps-grouping/).

As you probably know now, Winchester kept a good sized inventory of 1903's. Way too many to all be sniper rifles. Winchester did convert the USMC sniper rifles (not SA), but that is common knowledge for some time now. I do not know of any Winchester converted Warner & Swasey scoped rifles, as I believe they were rifles converted during the manufacturing process by SA. May I be so bold, please note that SA and WRA were in close proximity to each other, as well as Neidner. All were within one day's horse ride to each other. It seems SA occasionally farmed out work to WRA. The inspection of those very early SN rifles most likely had nothing to do with sniper rifles. I do believe SA farmed out the WWI era sniper rifle conversions to WRA due to their work overload.

Good work.

jt