Model 1888 RB Trapdoor

[IditarodJoe]

I think the time has come for me to add a trapdoor rifle to my collection which currently includes the M1 Garand, the M1 carbine, the Springfield 1903A3, the Model of 1917, the Springfield 1903, and the Krag rifle. This may well be my last major rifle purchase and my budget is $1000. I spotted this Model 1888 rod bayonet rifle, s/n 530974, on Al Frasca's web site and would appreciate hearing your thoughts about it. Guys here have consistently said that Mr. Frasca is very knowledgeable, honest, and prices his rifles fairly, so I'm not worried about that. But before I contact him, I'd like your opinions as to whether this is a really the best representative example of "the trapdoor era", or should I possibly wait for something different to come along? Thanks in advance. IJ

http://trapdoorcollector.com/530974.html

[Dick Hosmer]

You've asked a question that is very subjective. That model was the very last of the line, and had all the bells and whistles. Out of about 570,000 .45-70 trapdoors, nearly 65,000 were of that model. They are often found in excellent condition and make fine shooters. Some people might prefer the plain rifle, which is more common, and can be had nearly new. You should be able to find a nice trapdoor for $1000. Personally, I would choose Al's 529646 over the one you selected, as it has much more finish for a lower price, and the descriptions seem comparable.

[IditarodJoe]

Thank you for your thoughtful response, Dick. It's both helpful and encouraging. Yup, I realize that asking about "the best" gun is highly subjective, but having never even handled, much less owned, a trapdoor I greatly value the opinions of those with experience.

I suspect I passed over 529646 earlier because the metal markings look to be pretty faint, but that could just be the photos. I can write to Al and ask. On further inspection it certainly does seem to have more finish remaining. Given my d'ruthers, I'd probably gravitate toward a .50 caliber on the basis of the additional 20 years of history and the earlier features. Unfortunately, the 1868 that Mr. Frasca has listed at the moment looks to me like it may have been "scrubbed" by some well-meaning soul. (I have a pretty high tolerance - maybe even an affinity - for honest wear and tear on old battle rifles, but guns that have been the victims of attempted "restorations" hold little interest.) I had assumed that a decent, original 1868 would be completely out of my price range, but I might hold off for a bit longer and just see what comes up.

[Dick Hosmer]

With an approximately 1 in 10 production ratio, and up to 15 years more wear (some of which was in the hands of rear-echelon troops whose standards of upkeep may have been less) a truly NICE .50-70 will be about twice your budget. If you are wanting it to shoot as well as fondle, a .45-70 would be the most practical - and - the late ones (post 1878 - 96,300) are the strongest, and have better sights.

[IditarodJoe]

Again, great information Dick. You've helped me to narrow the field by quite a bit and also prompted me to send off a check for a copy of the Frasca and Hill book. I'm suddenly wondering why I didn't buy a copy sooner. Thank you for generously sharing your valued insights!

[StockDoc]

Good Info, thanks

[IditarodJoe]

Well, we took the plunge! I must have moved too slowly Dick, because after you pointed out Mr. Frasca's s/n 529646 it completely disappeared from his site. After some looking around and communication with him, I ended up buying his s/n 345824. It's supposed to arrive tomorrow! :banana100::banana100::banana100: If this link works, you can see photos here: http://www.jouster.com/forums/album.php?albumid=380.

Now I need to figure out what we'll feed it. I'm still not very confident about the cleanup procedure for black powder - so much conflicting information on the web. My first priority is to not harm the rifle. Would the Ultramax smokeless cowboy ammo sold by Buffalo Arms be a safe place to start?

[blackhawknj]

Black powder only for that old steel IMHO and there's something satisfying about that big cloud of white smoke.
Not so much conflicting information as just so many different ways, each of which is "correct".

[IditarodJoe]

I find it rather disturbing how in my latter years my desire to try new things has become so sadly diminished. :icon_redface: blackhawknj, I suspect I probably need a few of those big clouds of white smoke! :icon_lol:

OK, so for cleaning after shooting black powder, my take is something like this:
1. Lots and LOTS of plain water and a brush; then dry as much as possible with patches - I think I get that part.
2. Follow with some sort of water displacer like WD40 to get rid of any remaining water.
3. Next a black powder solvent like Hoppe's #9 Plus Black Powder Solvent.
4. Finally, something to seal the bore. I've read about Birchwood-Casey Barricade but am concerned by the warnings that it will damage wood. What about plain old gun oil? Is there something better? This is important as the rifle probably won't be fired all that often.

For ammo, I've used the 220 grain .30 Army (.30-40 Krag) from Old Western Scrounger in the past and been satisfied. What do y'all think of their 405 grain .45-70 Trapdoor cartridges? Safe for this rifle?

http://www.ows-ammo.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=58_21&products_id=704

Thanks

[John Sukey]

Consider the standard BP load for the rifle was a 500gr bullet, 405gr should be no problem:icon_lol:

[IditarodJoe]

Thanks John. I've ordered a couple of boxes.

The rifle arrived yesterday and I think it's absolutely gorgeous! Al Frasca is indeed a real pleasure to work with! I can't wait to get it out and shoot it, but I think the little lady is claiming the "right of first shot". :icon_lol:

[steved66]

Congratulations on your "new" trapdoor. Not surprised to hear that Al Frasca did you right and that you love the rifle. As for feeding your trapdoor, check out the "Shooters Page" link on Frasca's website, where there are a number of black powder and smokeless loads listed. Personally, I prefer shooting smokeless because it affords me the possibility to clean the rifle the next day, and it has a more mild kick: 23gr Alliant 2400 pushing a 405gr bullet.

After shooting black powder cartridges, my trick for cleaning the bore is to use a length of washing machine hose with one of the female ends cut off and tapered to plug into the rifle breech. The other end connects to the faucet on my slop sink, then I flush the bore with running water, right into the sink. Pretty much the same as described in the earlier post after the bore flush.

[blackhawknj]

Years ago I read an article in Camp Chase Gazette, the magazine for Civil War reenactors where the author recommended windshield washer fluid-"the cheaper, the better" as a good after action cleaner. I tried it once, worked fine. Reenactors also use a home brewed solution of one third rubbing alcohol, one third peroxide, one third Murphy's Oil Soap for in the field use.

[IditarodJoe]

Thanks! My ammo arrived today and it looks promising :banana100:. I don't have a slop sink . . . can effective cleaning be done just using wet patches? If not, maybe some sort of hose and funnel arrangement and a bucket. It sounds like there may be a bit of experimentation in my future. :icon_lol:

[13Echo]

Cleaning a Black Powder cartridge rifle with a good, smooth bore is easy. Turn the rifle over in the cradle and use a rubber band to hold the trapdoor open so crud doesn't fall into the action. Push a wet patch through the bore. Repeat till fouling is gone. Follow with dry patches. If there is some pitting use a water displacing oil like WD40 to make sure the pits are dry of water. Patch and then oil with a decent gun oil. Check the bore the next day. wipe the outside where there is fouling with a damp cloth and follow with oil. That's all there is too it.

It takes surprisingly few wet patches to get the job done with a decent bore. Be sure and use a muzzle guide so the rod doesn't wear the crown.

If you have lead fouling clean then soak the bore with a penetrating oil like Kroil or ATF and acetone then follow with a very tight patch that may need a bit of persuasion with a light hammer to punch the tube. The lead will come out in strips on the patch.

It is actually easier to clean one of these rifles than a muzzle loader.

[IditarodJoe]

Encouraging words, 13Echo. Thanks. I've got a 36" coated Dewey rod, a .44/.45 jag, and a brass muzzle guide so I should be able to do that. Out of curiosity, have you found a particular type of cleaning rest that works well for these looong rifles?

[John Sukey]

for cleaning I suggest a metal funnel. Flatten one side. Stick it in the breech end, and pour a kettle full of hot water down the bore, then clean the usual way

[13Echo]

I would add use a wet brush if you get hard fouling which can happen in dry weather.

To keep the fouling soft between shots use a blow tube. For my 1884 I have a clear plastic tube from the hardware store that happens to be the right diameter to enter the chamber and stop at the end of the chamber. Put it in the chamber and exhale through the tube. The moisture in your breath will help keep the fouling soft. On high humidity days this may not be necessary. On dry , low humidity days it may take several breaths.

I use my usual cleaning cradle for my other rifles at home. I made a collapsible one that attaches to my shooting kit for the range. The only difference for the Springfield is I turn the rifle upside down and hold the block open with a rubber band. This way any fouling pushed down the barrel falls out of the action instead of into it.

It isn't Rocket Surgery and it isn't Voodoo, just different.

Jerry Liles

[IditarodJoe]

Thanks all. I really appreciate "the voice of experience"! John, when you say "hot" water, are we talking "tap water" hot or "just off the boil" hot? Combining your recommendation and Jerry's comments, it occurs to me that I might be able to make up a funnel attached to a length of 1/2-inch silicone tubing for feeding water into the chamber. The normal thin-wall silicone tubing that I can buy locally can handle temperatures up to 130 F, but if necessary high temperature tubing is available on-line. I still plan to start out with wet patches, but if necessary I want to be prepared to go the whole route.

Jerry, thanks for the tip on the blow tube. I'll make one up and take it along. Measuring a .45-70 case, it looks like 1/2-inch OD tube might just barely squeeze into the chamber. The next size down is 7/16-inch OD which would be small enough to enter the bore. I'm led to believe that, at the range, I'll need to run a couple patches down the bore every 5 shots or so to clear fouling. I have some Hoppe's black powder bore cleaner for that. I also have a brass muzzle guide and both bronze and nylon bristle .45 brushes. Just realized this morning though that I don't have any 2-1/2 inch cleaning patches so I'll need to pick those up.

I gave some thought to the peroxide/alcohol/Murphy's mixture that blackhawknj mentioned. I suspect it would clean really well, but hydrogen peroxide is a strong oxidizer and I wouldn't be comfortable getting it anywhere near my rifle. I have seen some positive comments about a Birchwood Casey product called Muzzle Magic No. 77 if the Hoppe's doesn't work out for the range.

[blackhawknj]

As with reloading there is no "One Size Fits All" formula for BP cleaning. In the 3-in-1 solution the peroxide provides quick cleaning, the alcohol allows for quick drying, the Murphy's Oil Soap takes the edge off the peroxide and provides some lubrication. I like to use chemistry rather than elbow grease when cleaning BP, like doing dishes I let the chemicals soak the residue.