M1905 sights, 2800yd shoots

[Richard H Brown Jr]

Greetings:

Since the M1905 sights for the 1903 Springfield rifles were set for an extreme range shot in the 2800yrd range. How about some of you guys out in the west, where's enough room... trying some 2800yrd iron sight shots at a nice big bull and showing the results.

I suspect you'd have to make up something in the range of a 60in X ring.

But it'd be interesting to see a grouping at that range.

RHB

[Major Tom]

As they say in England "Bully".

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

The Marine that killed "Black Fritz" (WWI) did so with one shot through the head at 1500 yards after "Black Fritz" shot him in the leg at the same distance. Marine Pvt Roland Fisher killed six Germans with six consecutive shots at 1400 yards at Le Mare Farm (bunch of witnesses - WWI). I find these kind of shots to be amazing to say the least, scope or open sights. I would love to see such a demonstration as you suggest. It is like the 600 yard running elk shots by Elmer Keith (he hit the elk twice), which requires in excess of 37 feet of holdover. I have no doubt Elmer did it (Elmer is one of my heroes), but it is such an amazing feat one just wants to see it done in person.

Remember the bow guy who killed the Dall Sheep by shooting an arrow over a ridge when he couldn't see the Sheep? I saw that shot on TV back in the 50's or 60's. He was preparing to loose the arrow when the Sheep went over the crest, he hesitated a second or so and let fly. They found the sheep dead just over the ridge. Can't remember his name now, but he shot just about every game animal on earth and had a line of bows he marketed under his own name, and his own TV show.

I will say this, a friend and I paced off 600 yards from a 6 foot wide caliche rock, and using a 44 mag (him) and a 45 Long Colt (me), we had little trouble walking our rounds into that rock and then hitting it more often than not (we could see the dust fly when it hit the caliche). We used the Keith stance of leaning back against a mesquite tree and steadying the pistol against the outside of our right bent knee. Try it some time. You will amaze yourself.

jt

[Darreld Walton]

Greetings:

Since the M1905 sights for the 1903 Springfield rifles were set for an extreme range shot in the 2800yrd range. How about some of you guys out in the west, where's enough room... trying some 2800yrd iron sight shots at a nice big bull and showing the results.

I suspect you'd have to make up something in the range of a 60in X ring.

But it'd be interesting to see a grouping at that range.

RHB

The guys that fool around with the Chey Tac systems had been known to use the foothills above my place for shots such as you describe. They're getting it done, but with super-duper, double throw-down, high speed gidgets that measure every meteorological tidbit that they could think of, including the borealis effect, and maybe even your astrological information into a handheld computer that interfaces with a 6-24Xone gazillion super scope, spotters, and maybe even a satellite feed, and they don't do too bad of a job out that far. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkfWj1LapTo
I'd always been of the opinion that the 2800 yard notch on an 03 was for "volley fire", where you'd get a bunch of Doughboys together, pick out a target, and have them all launch a bunch of .30 caliber mortar rounds, much like an ancient Korean Hwacha, to try to keep someone's head down way out there..... Coulda been misinformed, though. It's happened before.

[PhillipM]

A friend's father told him of a WW1 battle where there was a farmhouse being used by the hunt as an artillery spotting post. The American artillery couldn't come up due to the mud and they had no machine guns, so an officer ranged the farmhouse (wish I had one of those rangefinders) and from about 2000 yards they volley fired. Upon later inspection, they tore the house and it's occupants to shreds.

[joem]

I have a M1876 Danish rifle with volley sights on it. As near as I can figure the volley sight could be set for 10,000 krona's or what ever distance that is. a 4 or 500 grain lead bullet falling on somebody would have to disable them.

[Richard H Brown Jr]

Sorry Folks:

What I meant to say is using the upper 'U' sight on the sliding bar on the M1905 Sight on the M1903 Springfield for the max distance on it, which, looking back at this document: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3vgQuY3vA0FMlVOcmE3NS1Lbkk/view?ths=true is 2750yrds. NOT repeat NOT the U notch volley sight on the top cross-member of the ladder.


RHB

[pickax]

Quote"Remember the bow guy who killed the Dall Sheep by shooting an arrow over a ridge when he couldn't see the Sheep? I saw that shot on TV back in the 50's or 60's. He was preparing to loose the arrow when the Sheep went over the crest, he hesitated a second or so and let fly. They found the sheep dead just over the ridge. Can't remember his name now, but he shot just about every game animal on earth and had a line of bows he marketed under his own name, and his own TV show" Quote

That was Fred Bear, one of the top instinctive shooters of his time. I have a collection of his older bows with the exotic wood risers.
On topic though, would be fun to have a place with that kind of range to reach out and experiment a bit.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Thanks,pickax. That's the guy.

jt

[Fred]

http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=34349&stc=1
A friend's father told him of a WW1 battle where there was a farmhouse being used by the hunt as an artillery spotting post. The American artillery couldn't come up due to the mud and they had no machine guns, so an officer ranged the farmhouse (wish I had one of those rangefinders) and from about 2000 yards they volley fired. Upon later inspection, they tore the house and it's occupants to shreds.

[Fred]

http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=34351&stc=1

[Fred]

http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=34353&stc=1

[Fred]

http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=34356&stc=1

[Fred]

http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=34357&stc=1

[Fred]

Maybe the slide rule was painted black so that it wouldn't be noticed easily by the enemy. Anyway, I believe that it's made of brass. They look white in the photos, but the numbers and letters are detailed in gold paint. It isn't the brass underneath the paint because nothing is patina'd.

[Fred]

The rangefinder goes up to 5,000 yards.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Wow. That is one cool device, Fred. Where did you find that beauty?

jt

[Fred]

:icon_scratch:I can't remember where I found it. I've lots of other stuff too and can't remember where most if it came from. I remember that the WWI Trench Lighter laying across the corner of the instructions in one of the photos belonged to a man who'd been a major in the Army.
Anyway, I've never tried to use it as my eyesight is messed up. I'll bet that it would serve one well in a situation though where knowing the distance to a target would be important. It seems to be an extremely precise instrument and just about indestructible.

[Emri]

I remember that the WWI Trench Lighter laying across the corner of the instructions in one of the photos belonged to a man who'd been a major in the Army.

Dixie Gun Works in Union City, TN used to list those for years in their annual catalogs. They were new surplus items and I think the price was about $5.

[Fred]

I sure wish I'd've bought a bunch of stuff from DGW back in the 70's.

[ElWoodman]

Correct.....hence the term "volley notch" on top of most.....There is no "vn" on National Match sights.....Only slightly more practical and less optimistic than the anti-aircraft sight leaves on Japanese Ty. 99s. Mi dos centavos.

[cplnorton]

Fred, I bet that slide was made for the Winchester Telescopic rifle Model of 1918. It was going to be the new Army Sniper rifle. I would have to go back and look but the Army ordered like 59,000 of them. But the war ended before many were made and the contract was cancelled.

But I really bet that slide was made as a companion piece to go along with this rifle. That would also explain why so many were NIB back then.

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt293/cplnorton2/Fullscreen%20capture%205292016%2051540%20PM.bmp_zp s8lawil0j.jpg

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt293/cplnorton2/Fullscreen%20capture%205292016%2051848%20PM.bmp_zp sfzvu81lx.jpg

[Fred]

That's pretty neat Steve.
That range finder went with the Rock Island Arsenal 1903 I sold recently to its new owner.

[Col. Colt]

I have one exactly as shown, and there was an earlier, slightly more complicated version with a silver finish, also. I believe the ring and string was held in the teeth or to the nose and it was standard issue to NCOs that would range for the entire group for "volley fire". CC

[clintonhater]

Dixie Gun Works in Union City, TN used to list those for years in their annual catalogs. They were new surplus items and I think the price was about $5.

It was, and I bought one of them a good 40 yrs ago. Can't believe ANYONE not possessing a genius IQ could have learned the effective use of it from the instructions alone, without personal or classroom instruction. Sold mine about a year ago for $96 + post. (ebay#171779283885) to a collector in England, of all places.

That so many of them were never issued suggests, I think, something about their real practicality in the field.

[bruce]

Re: OP. Magic is... well, magic. Shooting is not magic. The average 1903 infantry rifle in the hands of the average recruit with significant experience firing common ball ammo produced nothing more than routine service grade on target results in the field... most certainly not match grade results. On man sized targets... possibly get hits out to say 500 yds. or so. But, the battlefield is not conducive to outstanding accuracy. Have fired a lot of 03 and 03-A3 rifles since 1979. Have fired them with all manner of ball and excellent quality hand loads tailored to particular rifles. Do not deny that odd remarkable shots have been made. Do not consider reports of intentional extreme range hits to be anything more than well intentioned stories. The 1903 and it's predecessors as well as contemporary rifles used by other nations were designed and used in an era when useful machinegun were still being developed. The use of such weapons was still poorly understood. Firing at extreme range ... the 1903 and other similar rifles were fired in mass. The result was what machine guns would later produce... a beaten zone. The idea that a individual rifleman firing a common issue grade rifle that had seen actual day to day use in trench warfare using ball ammo would be able to make reliable called hits at anything beyond midranges is akin to believing in magic. It's possible that iron sighted 03 rifles were used to hit somebody at some long range on some day or other, but intentionally? It would have to be the equivalent of a golden B.B. JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.


Greetings:

Since the M1905 sights for the 1903 Springfield rifles were set for an extreme range shot in the 2800yrd range. How about some of you guys out in the west, where's enough room... trying some 2800yrd iron sight shots at a nice big bull and showing the results.

I suspect you'd have to make up something in the range of a 60in X ring.

But it'd be interesting to see a grouping at that range.

RHB

[Cosine26]

The M1903 and Long Range
The accuracy reputation of the M1903 was built on specially built NM rifles, using selected match ammo, and fired by expert riflemen.
I must agree with Bruce, those long range hits (if they actually occurred) are more luck than skill. WWI ball ammunition left a lot to be desired. General Hatcher (I know many of you disparage his results) reports that while testing 30-06 ball during WWI, he found that beyond 1200 yards the spread was quite wide. The ballistic coefficient of the 150 grain flat based bullet is such that at M1903/3006 ball velocities the bullets transited through the MACH 1 barrier before the 1000 yard mark and results became very unreliable.
I fired the M1903 in competition for many years using WWII 2 ball. AP, GI M72 Match and some very good handloads with match bullets, and I have no have no illusions about the accuracy of these combinations. I was shooting glass bedded M1903 in a type C stock, using a headless cocking piece, a Lyman 48 sight and a Timney trigger. A far more accurate combination than the average issue grade WWM1903 and WWI ball ammo. However I shall not use my singular efforts as a basis for determining the capability of the issue M1903 and WWI ball ammo.
I would suggest that anyone who is interested, go back through the American Rifleman from the 1920's and 1930's and view the results of the National Matches. The scarcity of "possibles" at 1000 yards with the "service" rifle is noticeable (Pop Farr's exploit being a notable exception, but it was fired with a 1921 NM M1903 using the infamous TIN CAN ammo). These matches were fired with special NM M1903's using Match ammo, fired by some of the best army and USMC marksmen of the era. The 1000 yard target was a 36 inch bulls eye far larger than a man sized target. The conditions were far more conducive to good shooting than would have been the battlefields of WWI. The shooters were coached and had scored targets. They fired from the prone position at known distances and most were proficient at "reading the wind" at long ranges.
JMHO

[PhillipM]

One of these days I'm going to shoot across the course with one of my 03's and sight mic just to see