View Full Version : M1917 stock with a "T" makers mark
I acquired a really nice M1917 Winchester recently with an early serial number 65030. The rifling is crisp and the rifle's general condition would indicate light duty throughout its life. The stock has been replaced at some point in time with one that has a "T" makers mark stamped on the front end where you would expect to see a W, R or E. I am not familiar with this manufacturer and I am not seeing anything on the Internet that would shed any light. Does anyone have any information on, or can identify this company?
Update with a photo:
40915
I have seen on other sites the it could be for length of stock T tall, M medium, S short
never seen a manufacturer with a T
also could be an E that is worn and was an attempt at a re-stamp gone bad...
my 2 cents worth
The stamping is crisp so it is definitely a T. The stock has good darkly toned walnut color, a nice dull finish, zero wear and all hardware fits as it should. I was thinking possibly aftermarket. I only have a few mechanical parts to replace to return to an all original Winchester M1917 but the stock won't be among them.
jaie5070
02-19-2016, 03:22
Does the stock have any other markings, ie eagles head or "P" proof stamp? Markings inside the mortising?
There are no identifying marks anywhere except for the T stamped on the front end of the stock.
Have you checked the configurations of the bolt handle notch in your stock? There are differences between the three WWI manufacturers. The "sculpting" is similar between R & W, but the difference is discernible. E is totally different than R & W. The reason that I mention this is because I've seen a few M1917 stocks where there was simply no evidence of the front end ever being stamped. An examination of the bolt notch however revealed their origin. It may that those stocks were from finished but uninspected inventory from the end of WWI that were used in the WWII rebuild? Additionally the front ends of M1917 stocks were commonly stamped with what appear to be unit or inventory markings. It's also my understanding that at least one contractor was supplying stocks for the WWII rebuild program, but I've never heard of who it was.
I recently bought a Winchester bolt to replace the Eddystone bolt that came with the rifle and I can see a difference in the shape of the bolt handles. The W handle is curved and the E handle is squared. Both seem to fit inside the stock notch. I might take my W M1917 with me to the next gun show and compare it to the stocks on the M1917s that are for sale to see if the notch on mine matches any of them. Thanks for the suggestion. The stock on my M1917 is close to being flawless so I'm committed to keeping it.
kragluver
02-20-2016, 09:07
The lack of a P or eagles head stamp would indicate your T stock is a replacement. This thread caught my eye as I own a '17 with a stock fore tip stamped LT with the two letters being over struck. My stock has a proof and Eagles head stamp and no rebuild mark. The rest of the rifle is a mix master.
Kragluver, I've always known that the stock has been replaced if only because of the like-new condition and I'm ok with it. This rifle probably went into storage after receiving a new stock. The only damaged part was a rusty butt plate that was probably caused by it being propped upright on a damp concrete floor. Good to know I'm not the only '17 owner with questions about the origin of their stock. I read about another stock stamped with a T on this forum. The owner was also baffled as to its origin.
Pretty sure the typical service performed at arsenals almost always resulted in mixed parts. I've read about the early W '17s with a star in a circle stamping on the receiver (like mine) and the Army's supposed reluctance to send these guns to Europe due to parts interchangeability issues. However, my early '17 (Ser. No. 65030 made in Nov. 1917) mixmaster has a W barrel and receiver and the rest are mostly E and R parts. Everything fits properly and the rifle functions as intended.
chuckindenver
02-24-2016, 07:42
S short
M medium
T tall
3 lengths of stocks available for the 1917 during rebuild or lend lease , most were made by Melton Bradly. and other sub contarctors
Warbrds also mentioned that M1917 stocks came in tall, medium and short lengths in his earlier posting. That has me wondering if any stocks marked with a M or S are out there and how much of a size difference exists among the three sizes. Why three sizes were offered is another good question.
Three different sizes of the M1917 stocks would make sense since the rifle is such a monster. You have to wonder how 145 pound doughboys hauled them around France.
The OEM probably shortened up the butt stock end to vary the length. Haven't heard of anyone finding a M or S yet. Everyone who looks at the rifle with a T stock comments on the size of it (46").
missmodel12
04-11-2016, 07:33
The OEM probably shortened up the butt stock end to vary the length. Haven't heard of anyone finding a M or S yet. Everyone who looks at the rifle with a T stock comments on the size of it (46").
Just purchased a Remington Model 1917 yesterday. The stock has the "T" stamped on the front face. Also stamped left side in a outlined box OEL with 1919 underneath the 3 initials. All the stamping are in the square outlined box. The length in 46". The LOP is 13-3/8", serial number is 78694 bbl date is 9-18 gun is all Remington marked except rear sight spring "E", bolt release lever "E", and safety marked with "E". Could Remington have used "E" stamped parts in early production if they were short on "R" stamped parts? Also the OEL and 1919 is markings that I cannot google search info on. The bore is mint/ pristine. There is a "V" stamped forward of the floorplate on the underneath of the stock and there is a "BK" stamped behind the trigger guard in the wood. wood all matches with color and finish. Would say that all wood is original to when issued. There is a "R" stamped under the top front hand guard. I have not taken the gun further apart to verify any other stampings. All parts that I have viewed ( 75%) have the "R" stampings other than the ones noted. I do not think that the gun has been blasted as the WWII guns but it is a parkerized finish. Any questions out there to my gun are welcome and I can add pictures later if needed. I did purchase a couple 1917 books off of ebay for a great deal as well as this 1917. This is my first Model 1917 and would like to authenticate it as much as possible. Hope my gun will help others with information. Cell at 310-508-1827 Etienne
IditarodJoe
04-11-2016, 08:01
Harrison identifies OEL / 1919 in a rectangular box as a Rock Island Arsenal post WW1 acceptance mark that "may indicate rework or check and test only". No indication has been found that any of the three 1917 manufacturers ever exchanged parts. HTH
Just purchased a Remington Model 1917 yesterday. The stock has the "T" stamped on the front face. Also stamped left side in a outlined box OEL with 1919 underneath the 3 initials. All the stamping are in the square outlined box. The length in 46". The LOP is 13-3/8", serial number is 78694 bbl date is 9-18 gun is all Remington marked except rear sight spring "E", bolt release lever "E", and safety marked with "E". Could Remington have used "E" stamped parts in early production if they were short on "R" stamped parts? Also the OEL and 1919 is markings that I cannot google search info on. The bore is mint/ pristine. There is a "V" stamped forward of the floorplate on the underneath of the stock and there is a "BK" stamped behind the trigger guard in the wood. wood all matches with color and finish. Would say that all wood is original to when issued. There is a "R" stamped under the top front hand guard. I have not taken the gun further apart to verify any other stampings. All parts that I have viewed ( 75%) have the "R" stampings other than the ones noted. I do not think that the gun has been blasted as the WWII guns but it is a parkerized finish. Any questions out there to my gun are welcome and I can add pictures later if needed. I did purchase a couple 1917 books off of ebay for a great deal as well as this 1917. This is my first Model 1917 and would like to authenticate it as much as possible. Hope my gun will help others with information. Cell at 310-508-1827 Etienne
Some day someone will tell us who "T" was. The stock on my M1917 has no other marks other than the T and appears to have been stained but no linseed oil so it has a dull unfinished look.
Serial number 78694 stamped on the receiver indicates it was manufactured in 2/1918. There's a possibility that the barrel was replaced if it carries the date 9/18 on the muzzle as those dates were usually a lot closer.
You'll most likely will continue to find a mix of parts as you disassemble your rifle. It wasn't unusual for parts to get mixed during mass cleanings or when replacement parts were needed. Most non-R parts will work just fine while others may work ok but won't fit exactly right. R, E and W never completely achieved total parts interchangeability. R parts are easily found on eBay or on-line parts dealers (Springfield Sporters, Numrich, etc.).
Go to www.m1903.com and look under Marks in the left column for M1917 Parts. The list will tell where the OEM's initials were stamped.
If you're planning to shoot it, either have a gunsmith check it with a headspace field gauge or buy one and check it yourself. There's a way to check for throat erosion on this forum. Go to Mauser Rifles and go to Spanish Mauser 7X57 Reloads.
Merc
mannparks
04-12-2016, 06:03
One of my Eddy stones also has a T struck ,off to the right of a lightly struck fairly large E
One of my Eddy stones also has a T struck ,off to the right of a lightly struck fairly large E
It's still an original Eddystone if there's an E stamped on the stock. Could it be an inspector's mark?
Merc
Just purchased a Remington Model 1917 yesterday. The stock has the "T" stamped on the front face. Also stamped left side in a outlined box OEL with 1919 underneath the 3 initials. All the stamping are in the square outlined box. The length in 46". The LOP is 13-3/8", serial number is 78694 bbl date is 9-18 gun is all Remington marked except rear sight spring "E", bolt release lever "E", and safety marked with "E". Could Remington have used "E" stamped parts in early production if they were short on "R" stamped parts? Also the OEL and 1919 is markings that I cannot google search info on. The bore is mint/ pristine. There is a "V" stamped forward of the floorplate on the underneath of the stock and there is a "BK" stamped behind the trigger guard in the wood. wood all matches with color and finish. Would say that all wood is original to when issued. There is a "R" stamped under the top front hand guard. I have not taken the gun further apart to verify any other stampings. All parts that I have viewed ( 75%) have the "R" stampings other than the ones noted. I do not think that the gun has been blasted as the WWII guns but it is a parkerized finish. Any questions out there to my gun are welcome and I can add pictures later if needed. I did purchase a couple 1917 books off of ebay for a great deal as well as this 1917. This is my first Model 1917 and would like to authenticate it as much as possible. Hope my gun will help others with information. Cell at 310-508-1827 Etienne
If your serial number is 78,000 range and the rifle is parkerized then it's been rebuilt and refinished for WW2. There were WW1 rifles that were parkerized but those were towards the end of production and not early on like yours. About the first 3/4 of production were all blued. As to the parts changed between makers. The answer is no they all used their own parts. Parts will generally interchange except for the very early Winchesters.
JB White
04-12-2016, 10:16
Some day someone will tell us who "T" was.
Perhaps they'll know the significance of the little heart shaped marking following the R on the tip of a Remington stock. Nobody has a clue so far. Only wish I still had the photo of it. The rifle has been long gone.
mannparks
04-12-2016, 10:56
Not inspectors Mark this is on the nose of the stock underneath the bayonet lug
Notes from the gun show I attended in Monroeville (near Pittsburgh) last Sunday.
A vendor had a M1917 for sale with a replacement stock. It was completely unmarked (no T) but, like mine, it was in nice shape and fit the rifle perfectly in every way.
The one thing I've always been curious about were the shape of the stock finger grooves. I noticed that the finger grooves of the original M1917 factory stocks had crisp edges. However, the grooves on my replacement T stamped stock were somewhat rounded as if someone had sanded them down during a refinishing attempt. I noticed that the replacement stock on the rifle that was for sale also had rounded edges on the stock finger grooves which now makes me think that they were originally made that way.
My '17 is still a blast (no pun intended) to shoot and still attracts lots of attention at the range.
Grove shape like the bolt handle recess are unique to each original MFG.
I don't have any non E, W or R stocks to compare, I think my brother has one and while not stamped it matches up as one of the other (R I think)
Three different sizes of the M1917 stocks would make sense since the rifle is such a monster. You have to wonder how 145 pound doughboys hauled them around France.
I wonder how those 98 pound Philippineoes and Chinese hauled those monsters around!
For them it had to be a crew served weapon.
If your serial number is 78,000 range and the rifle is parkerized then it's been rebuilt and refinished for WW2. There were WW1 rifles that were parkerized but those were towards the end of production and not early on like yours. About the first 3/4 of production were all blued. As to the parts changed between makers. The answer is no they all used their own parts. Parts will generally interchange except for the very early Winchesters.
They underwent a re man after WWI initially. If a W or R or E b arrel got onto a differen receiver (or versa visa) then that's when it would have occurred.
There was an issue with storge and I belive they pulled them out and reidd them but found many had corroded due to poor applicaothn of cosmo.
WWII would have been JA, RI (not that many) and HS who all made replacement barrels.
I would doubt any barrels got swapped, receiver would have been indestructible for all practical purposes If done it would have been at best rare
On the other hand, as it was not uncommon to change calibers on these in between WWI and WWII when in civilian hands there had to be a number of OEM barrels drifting around.
Its possible that some of those guns that owners wanted to keep 30-06 and took a gun in with a bad barrel, would get a replacement WWI used barrel that was good.
Great history and all sorts of intriguing gaps.
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