Price check

[barretcreek]

Saw a very nice Winchester P17, all original. 98%. Rifling is sharp but grooves a little dark. What price range would cover it? Has a period sling.

[jaie5070]

Really need more info. Are all the parts blued or are some parkerized? Rebuild stamps? Do all the parts look like they have been on the rifle a long time? Is all the wear consistant with each other? I have two winchesters that are imports. One is almost all winchester but many of the small parts are parkerized from what I assume is a post WW1 refinishing. The other is
a complete mixmaster.

[Clark Howard]

If the barrel is serviceable, the bottom $ is $650-$700. Depending on rebuild/refinish situation, a blued original with all Win parts is looking at $1000+. Just what I see at the shows. Regards, Clark

[barretcreek]

The rifle is all blued, 1916 barrel date. Red banded forearm and handguard, lend lease. Blue is even, wood matches. Typical gunshow lighting, can barely see the floor. Guy lives about hour and a half so I'll call him next week if he still has it and I can do a proctologist type exam.

[Merc]

You could expect to pay $100 or more for an original period leather sling depending on condition.

[ElWoodman]

The 1916 bbl date, and red banded stock lead me to believe you have a P14 rather than a 1917.....My $.02....

[Johnny P]

The red bands were put on rifles sent to England as Lend-Lease that were not British caliber, like the M1 Rifle, M1903, or M1917 rifles. Be sure the date isn't 1918 rather than 1916, and it sounds more like a Model 1917 Rifle. Almost 120,000 Model 1917 rifles were sent to England as Lend-Lease during WWII.

[5MadFarmers]

Almost 120,000 Model 1917 rifles were sent to England as Lend-Lease during WWII.

Over 3/4 million M-1917s went to England.

[Johnny P]

Over 3/4 million M-1917s went to England.

Table LL-14 Quantities of selected items included in War Department Lend-Lease shipments, 1941-1945, United States Army in World War II - Statistics, Office of the Chief of Military History, Special; Staff, U.S. Army, Historical Manuscript File, pp. 28-29, RG, WNRC.

Slow down and read the post before you start using your own figures. The post said LEND-LEASE, and 119,000 rifles were Lend-Leased to England. The largest number of Model 1917 rifles that went to England were purchased by the British Purchasing Commission.

[Merc]

Are you planning to shoot the '17? If yes, then just an external inspection won't tell you if the rifle has excessive wear. First, I'd check the date on the barrel and compare it to the serial number date. If possible, check for muzzle erosion and headspace to make sure both are within specs. The gauges required to perform these tests are inexpensive, generally available and something you can do yourself.

Oh, and I found the prices mentioned by Clark Howard to be generally accurate.

The headspace gauge should be a "field" gauge.

[PhillipM]

No such thing as a P17 ;)

[5MadFarmers]

Table LL-14 Quantities of selected items included in War Department Lend-Lease shipments, 1941-1945, United States Army in World War II - Statistics, Office of the Chief of Military History, Special; Staff, U.S. Army, Historical Manuscript File, pp. 28-29, RG, WNRC.

Slow down and read the post before you start using your own figures. The post said LEND-LEASE, and 119,000 rifles were Lend-Leased to England. The largest number of Model 1917 rifles that went to England were purchased by the British Purchasing Commission.

Speaking of slowing down and reading a post, go back and read mine. It was quite short:


Over 3/4 million M-1917s went to England.

Are you claiming it's incorrect?

Then we can get into whether they painted some, but not other, rifles of the "foreign caliber" with bands to identify them no?

In addition to the lend-lease rifles they were sent 250,000 M-1917s. Not purchased by their Purchasing Commission. Simply sent. Did they get painted? We have the answer.


London [via U.S. Embassy]
Sept. 22, 1940, 12 A.M.

Personal and Secret for the President from Former Naval Person.

I asked Lord Lothian to speak to you about our remaining desiderata. The two hundred and fifty thousand rifles are most urgently needed as I have two hundred and fifty thousand trained and uniformed men into whose hands they can be put. I should be most grateful if you could arrange the necessary release. Every arrangement will be made to transport them with utmost speed. They will enable us to take two hundred and fifty thousand .303 rifles from the home guard and transfer them to the regular army leaving the home guard armed with about eight hundred thousand American rifles.

The 250,000 rifles sent, not lend-lease and not purchased, were issued to the Home Guard.


The fact that the P17, although based on a .303 British weapon, fired a .300 round meant that all these rifles had to be clearly marked with a red band around the "furniture" of the weapon, to prevent accidental use of .303 ammunition.

From "In Search of the Real Dad's Army: The Home Guard and the Defence of the United Kingdom, 1940-1944 by Stephen M. Cullen.

Pattern 14 rifles were issued to the Home Guard. When the M-1917s arrived they were as well. The cause for confusion is evident.

The red band doesn't mean "lend-lease." It's a caliber warning. Over 3/4 million M-1917s were shipped. 119,000 were lend-lease. 250,000 were sent before the lend-lease act and were not purchased or loaned - simply sent.

[Johnny P]

Read it again and maybe you can understand it. I said that approximately 120,000 M1917 rifles were Lend-Leased to England. You quoted my post and said that over 3/4 million went to England. My statement was factual, so what made you think my post needed to be quoted?

I know you feel that you are the only one that can read the instructions on the heel of the boot and be witty and entertaining while doing so, but your urge to prove someone wrong sometimes exceeds your ability to understand what has been posted.

[5MadFarmers]

Read it again and maybe you can understand it. I said that approximately 120,000 M1917 rifles were Lend-Leased to England. You quoted my post and said that over 3/4 million went to England. My statement was factual, so what made you think my post needed to be quoted?

Due to context. The thread is about M-1917s with red bands. So pointing out that 119,000 rifles were sent as lend-lease is either a non-sequitor or information, that while correct, isn't relevant. It implies that rifles with red bands are lend-lease. Which isn't true for M-1917s in the majority of cases.


I know you feel that you are the only one that can read the instructions on the heel of the boot and be witty and entertaining while doing so, but your urge to prove someone wrong sometimes exceeds your ability to understand what has been posted.

You have no idea how I feel and I clearly understood the topic of the thread. Which makes one of us. Read the posts again and maybe this time you'll grasp it.

[dave]

A field gauge means it is out of spec but serviceable till it can be fixed, not yet dangerous in other words.

[Merc]

The point of having gauges with you when looking for an antique military rifle is to find one that's not worn beyond being fired accurately and safely. It's much better to know in advance that the rifle you're considering won't require the additional expense of repairs in order to be a shooter. It's been my experience that gun show vendors generally won't tell you the condition of the rifles they're selling and leave it up to the buyer to determine that. I personally wouldn't buy a rifle if I knew in advance that it has a headspace, or any other issue, but that's JMHO.

[p246]

I just sold an M1917 lend lease with remaining red paint for $750.00. Bore was good. Stock was not beat up but dark. No sling went with it, it was a Remington, hope this helps. Five years ago I bought a Eddystone lend lease with red paint. Dam fine shooter. I paid $500.00 for it,wife can sell it when I'm dead cuz I'm keeping that one.

[PhillipM]

The point of having gauges with you when looking for an antique military rifle is to find one that's not worn beyond being fired accurately and safely. It's much better to know in advance that the rifle you're considering won't require the additional expense of repairs in order to be a shooter. It's been my experience that gun show vendors generally won't tell you the condition of the rifles they're selling and leave it up to the buyer to determine that. I personally wouldn't buy a rifle if I knew in advance that it has a headspace, or any other issue, but that's JMHO.

I'm finicky. I don't own a field gauge, if it closes on my no go, I don't want it.

[Merc]

I'm finicky. I don't own a field gauge, if it closes on my no go, I don't want it.

I give it a bit more space and use the field gauge. The Eddystone bolt on my early M1917 Winchester closed easily on a no-go gauge but only about 80% on a field gauge. I bought a Winchester bolt on eBay and it closed completely on the field gauge so I returned it to the vendor. I'd like to find a NOS Winchester bolt but even the worn ones are really scarce. The Eddystone bolt that's on the rifle seems OK and hasn't caused any problems so far. I admire how well the M1917 is built. It's probably my best shooter with open sights.

[PhillipM]

I give it a bit more space and use the field gauge. The Eddystone bolt on my early M1917 Winchester closed easily on a no-go gauge but only about 80% on a field gauge. I bought a Winchester bolt on eBay and it closed completely on the field gauge so I returned it to the vendor. I'd like to find a NOS Winchester bolt but even the worn ones are really scarce. The Eddystone bolt that's on the rifle seems OK and hasn't caused any problems so far. I admire how well the M1917 is built. It's probably my best shooter with open sights.

I don't know if they exist for a 1917, but I have a 1903 aromer's test bolt.

[fjruple]

Hi Philip--

The Model of 1917 Enfield did not have an armorer's test bolt from what I have been able to ascertain. They had have a test fixture which tested the bolt. The fixture comprised of a spare receiver with a tool (Tool engineering drawing 412234) and dial indicator screwed into the receiver in place of the barrel. The bolt to be tested would be placed into the receiver with the dial indicator set at 0. If the dial indicator read more than .001 the bolt would be rejected. I hope this was helpful. The information came from the Base Shop Data manual for the 1917 Enfield dated 2-11-1943.

--fjruple

[PhillipM]

Thank you!