hand loading for a 1917

[tbryan]

I bought a Eddystone 1917 the other day in a pawn shop. All Eddystone, with it 1918 barrel , but parkerized. Bore has strong rifling, but the grooves are dark. Muzzle is counter bored about two inches. I'm having trouble getting it under three inches at a hundred yards. Any suggestions as to getting it down ? I have used 760 Ball, 4895 , 4350 all with fed primers and 168 mk's. I relieved the barrel channel a bit, but not much. Any help ?

[swampyankee]

Try using a flat base bullet in different weights. Many of my military rifles with worn barrels shoot flat base better as it has a better gas seal leaveing the barrel.

[Merc]

Three inches at 100 yards is pretty good for an old battle rifle and is probably within the margin of error of the shooter's aiming ability, especially with an iron sight. You could also try adjusting powder loads. I use a starting load plus one grain and that seemed to work.

[kcw]

Have you checked the situation between the very forward end of the stock and the barrel at that point? As with the 03 Springfield, the forward inch (or so) of the fore stock should bear up against the underside of the barrel with around 4 or 5 LBS pressure. It is VERY common the wood under the rear tang of the receiver has become oil soaked and "mushy" after nearly a century, causing the tang to sink deeper into the wood than it should when the tang screw is tightened. That situation causes the forward end of the barrel to rise upward from the end of the fore stock, often to the point that not only is the previously mentioned pressure reduced, but commonly the TOP of the barrel will be riding against the underside of the forward barrel band, resulting in an actual gap between the bottom of the barrel and the fore stock. The fix is to either place a small brass shim of suitable thickness between the underside of the rear tang and the stock so as to raise the tang & return the proper relationship between the forward end of the barrel and the stock, or route out the mushy wood and replace it with a bedding material of suitable thickness in place of shim(s).
Another issue might be throat wear. A bore in the condition you describe may have an eroded throat. Have you checked for bullet "jump" of your loads? See what happens if you can adjust the OAL of your loads so that you only have a couple thousands "jump".
As swampyyankee mentioned, flat base bullets tend to shoot better than boat tails, in my experience the heavier the better in worn military barrels.
Something else I've found with "dark" barrels is, after you've scrubbed the daylights out of them to assure yourself that you've removed any corrosive residue and removal rust, is to refrain from frequent barrel cleaning. I've found that dark barrels tend to tighten up after 20 or 30 rounds. If you scrub the daylights out of them again they "loosen" up until another 20 or 30 rounds go through them. I have both a P14 & a M1917 with dark but strong bores, each now had at least several hundred rounds of my reloads through them WITHOUT a bore cleaning. They both will hold about 1.5" at 100 yds off the bench. I'll only scrub them again when they start to open up.

[us019255]

Back in the '90's lots of those "counterbored for accuracy" M1917's came back from somewhere that they use Arabic script. I had one.
didn't group at all. I solved the problem by rebarreling with a JA old new stock barrel. After rebeading to put ~5lbs on muzzle end, it shoots great. I just didn't feel like fiddling to find a "magic load".

[kcw]

Back in the '90's lots of those "counterbored for accuracy" M1917's came back from somewhere that they use Arabic script. I had one.
didn't group at all. I solved the problem by rebarreling with a JA old new stock barrel. After rebeading to put ~5lbs on muzzle end, it shoots great. I just didn't feel like fiddling to find a "magic load".

JFK released the very last of the U.S. M1917 rifle inventory as military aid to Pakistan, whom the U.S. "allied" with in Pakistan's war with Soviet dominated India. I recall the ad for those rifles in SNG around the early 90's. As I recall, the ad claimed them to be in less than pristine condition, with many of the receiver rings having been "scrubbed" of the original markings to one extent or another. With the receivers having been scrubbed, I'm absolutely certain that the India-Soviet pact would have been totally confounded as to the origin of those rifles, ;-)

[tbryan]

KCW, I put some plastic shim under the area you suggested, but I don't think I have it even. I might increase it a bit and see if that helps. us said 5 lbs worked for him, so I will start there. Swampyankee's idea about trying flat base bullets is something I haven't tried. That just might work. I had a 222 mag years ago that wouldn't shoot bt's, but did exceptionally well with flat base. I had forgotten about that. The throat is eroded somewhat. I have played with seating depth, but no change in grouping. I will try all these suggestions and see if I can get it to group. Thanks. I'll let you know.

[kcw]

tbryan, I've always found shims to be a pain in the butt. They do work, but they fall out every time you remove the action from the stock. I've had much better satisfaction with bedding the area under the tang. I take a dental burr on my Dremel and route out the old, oily mushy wood; just like a dentist mucks out a cavity. I undercut the wood behind the tang to make certain I get a good foundation of bedding in there, but which can't be seen when the gun is assembled. I like to place the stock in a cradle, and then pack enough bedding in the cavity so that when I lightly press the stripped barreled receiver into the stock, the top rear edge of the tang floats even with the wood at the rear edge of the tang. In doing that, the only places that the barrel receiver is touching the stock is at the front end of the stock and at the tang (atop the bedding), everything else is hanging above the wood. I like to let the bedding cure for a week and a half before tightening up the receiver.
As to your bullet choices. You might want to consider the use of flat based, round nosed bullets. (ie. 150gr, Hornady RN's). You can't beat round nose bullets for their maximum gliding surface which comes in handy when used in rough bores. Not only that, but you can set them forward a good bit, and still keep the case neck at least half full of bullet. My experience is that, out to 200yds, there isn't much different in where spritzers and RN's print anyway.

[PhillipM]

Let Chuckindenver install a new criterian barrel instead of asking a worn out barrel to do something it can't do.

[Jim in Salt Lake]

+1 on the new barrel if it's a shooter. For 100-200 yard loads, I've been using Sierra's 125gr Matchking. It's a flat based bullet originally intended for .300 Blackout. I like to load them for a velocity of 2300-2400fps, makes for a great Vintage Rifle match load. They're nice especially for sitting and prone rapid, the recoil doesn't change your position.

[PhillipM]

+1 on the new barrel if it's a shooter. For 100-200 yard loads, I've been using Sierra's 125gr Matchking. It's a flat based bullet originally intended for .300 Blackout. I like to load them for a velocity of 2300-2400fps, makes for a great Vintage Rifle match load. They're nice especially for sitting and prone rapid, the recoil doesn't change your position.

I tried the 125 TNT without much luck. I'll have to give these a shot. What is your recipe?

[tbryan]

Making the old barrel shoot is a challenge. The only thing I really don't like is the counter bore. If I have to I might try a Critirion. on it. I looked them up ,and I can get one for around $200. I only paid $250 for the rifle, but I had to buy a rear sight for it. I found some 200 grain flat base hollow point bullets for it and loaded ten of them just off the lands. If it will quiet raining I will see how it does .

[PhillipM]

Making the old barrel shoot is a challenge. The only thing I really don't like is the counter bore. If I have to I might try a Critirion. on it. I looked them up ,and I can get one for around $200. I only paid $250 for the rifle, but I had to buy a rear sight for it. I found some 200 grain flat base hollow point bullets for it and loaded ten of them just off the lands. If it will quiet raining I will see how it does .

I've never had a counterbored rifle, but I have had a couple of 03's with sewer pipe barrels. On both I spent nearly the cost of a new barrel trying to make them shoot. One, my sporter 03A3, would do okay when properly copper fouled, but it was only for a little while. I found an aftermarket segley sporter barrel for it and had chuckindenver screw it on and refinish the rifle and have not looked back.

The other was a funeral home gun that shot corrosive blanks. Nothing I tried would make it shoot. A new barrel ended my frustration. Like Townsend Whelen said, "Only accurate rifles are interesting."

[tbryan]

This bore is just not that bad. It is dark, but has strong lands. I have a shooter/machinist here that is altering a tool to reach in and touch up the crown. I have a 94 Win. in 38-55 that has the worst barrel I have ever owned. I gave up on it finally, and am having it relined. The Enfield has it's original barrel still, and I might go the relining route with it, but first I will play with it some more. I realize that 3 inches out of a 98 year old barrel is not so bad, but you never know. I will try the flat base bullets this weekend.

[PhillipM]

Dark is rust pits by another name. You may try some of the abrasive bullets like Tubb's final finish.

[Jim in Salt Lake]

Hey Phillip,

Last time out, I used 38.0gr of Varget. Varget is pretty dang hard to find now, it's the long range powder of choice and all those shooters are after it. I've also used 37.3gr of IMR 4895. Both these loads are below minimum. I started with the minimum loads and worked down until I hit 2400fps and didn't have any problems on the way.

[RC20]

If you are going to stay in the Mil Surplus rifle area it would be a good idea to get a Throat Erosion Muzzle Wear gauge from Steven Mathews.

If the throat is gone you may not get any better results. I am happy with 4 or 5 inches at 100 using iron sights.

Hornady does make a 180 gr flat based bullet that can work. Also you can try 303 bullets that have a larger diameter. I have had good luck with 4350, 4831 , R17. I take them about .030 off the lands. I don't go by the book as the 1917 tends to be shorter than a 1903.

that said 3 inches at 100 is pretty darned good.

What I would do is pick you best load and then adjust COAL. Try finding the lands first (get a Hornady comparator gauge for that is my best tool) and then set back.

what I do is go long, take my old RCBSD Junior press to the range with me, bolt it to a bench and then I can seat the bullets back a bit at a time.

I use a completion seating die for that as you can dial it down in known increments.

[tbryan]

I think the throat might be bad. It won't consistently shoot 3 inches. The flat base 200 grain bullets didn't do much, and I bought a box of 150 Hornadays today. The hunt continues.

[kcw]

I think the throat might be bad. It won't consistently shoot 3 inches. The flat base 200 grain bullets didn't do much, and I bought a box of 150 Hornadays today. The hunt continues.

Are you getting consistently "round" groupings? No "flyers" going off any which way on a predictable basis (ie. one out of five?) What powder/charge wt. are you using? Is it possible to recover any spent bullets so as to look for evidence of issues such as "blow-by"?

[PhillipM]

Hey Phillip,

Last time out, I used 38.0gr of Varget. Varget is pretty dang hard to find now, it's the long range powder of choice and all those shooters are after it. I've also used 37.3gr of IMR 4895. Both these loads are below minimum. I started with the minimum loads and worked down until I hit 2400fps and didn't have any problems on the way.

Thank you, I never thought to go that low.

What are your thoughts on the powder charge laying even against the bullet, or against the primer? Mag or std primers?

[Jim in Salt Lake]

I use large rifle primers and only extruded (stick) powders. I stay close enough to the minimum that I don't get big swings in muzzle velocity, I use a Magnetospeed chronograph to measure, if I get high standard deviations, I go back up. The loads I've used don't seem to get the powder charge so low that I'd have the concerns you're talking about, I have them, too. I think if I wanted to go lower/slower I'd look at something like Trailboss powder but I haven't been there, yet. It's amazing how much recoil is reduced by dropping 400fps in muzzle velocity and 40gr in bullet weight.

[tbryan]

well, shot the Enfield today, using 150 gr Hornadys over 48 grains of IMR4064. I tried three different seating depths. It would put 4 in about 2 inches, with one out an inch or so.
the seating depth didn't seem to matter that much. That surprised me some. I am encouraged by this and will work with more and less powder charges and some other flat base bullets. I think I can get it to 2 inches. It would put 3 into an inch and a quarter, with the other two opening up the group. It's a neat old rifle.

[steved66]

tbryan,
Have you tried low velocity cast lead bullet loads? The bore on these rifles varied somewhat so a .308 jacket bullet might not be the best fit for the bore of your rifle. You could try using 16gr of Alliant 2400 pushing a .309 or .310 gas checked lead bullet. The slightly oversized lead bullet will really engage the rifling. This might tighten up your group.

[tbryan]

I might try some cast later. Right now I want it to shoot the jacketed bullets. I just bought a Garand last Friday. Now I have two to work up loads for.

[RC20]

If you want to check the throat a not cost way to do it is to load up a round with no power or primer and seat way long, as close to falling ouit as possible. Good long 200 gr .30 works well.

Tricky part is to get the firing pin out of the bolt as too much cam action with it in.

If you know how to do that you are then good. There is a knowledge groups who says to remove th extractor but I don't find that to be needed.

Round gets put into magazine, run bolt forward carefully and feel for resistance. If no resistance with it long your throat is eroded and you need a gauge to see how far.

If you get resistance and hopefully before even the bolt handle starts to turn down, seat the bullet .020 deeper and repeat until it goes in smoothly and the bolt handle goes all the way down easily

Measure the COAL and you have some ideas of where you stand.

Best I can do is 3 inches 5 shot groups at 100 yds, but my eyes are an issue